Prop Gun Shooting. One crewmember dead New Mexico filmset

[funkychinaman]

From CNN:

https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/22/enter...ent/index.html

"A search warrant issued by the Santa Fe County Sheriff's Office and obtained by CNN affiliate KOAT revealed that Baldwin was handed one of three prop guns by assistant director David Halls that were set up in a cart by an armorer.
Halls handed the gun to Baldwin and yelled "cold gun," meaning the gun did not have live rounds, the affidavit states.
The gun fired by Baldwin hit Hutchins in the chest and wounded Souza, who was behind her while rehearsing a scene, in the shoulder. She was pronounced dead at a hospital after being transported by helicopter.
The investigator says in the affidavit that the assistant director did not know the gun had live rounds when he handed the gun to Baldwin."

Why would there ever be live rounds on set at all?

[commando552]

I'm not 100% sure that when they say "live rounds" there they actually mean rounds with a bullet in them. It sort of seems like they may be using the term "live" to mean loaded, be it with blanks or something else. This part, "Halls handed the gun to Baldwin and yelled "cold gun," meaning the gun did not have live rounds, the affidavit states" would suggest that a blank loaded gun would also be a "cold gun" which would not be the case, so in this context "live rounds" seems to be any rounds other than dummies or unloaded.

My guess woud be that the gun was a revolver so it needed dummy cartridges in it to appear loaded, and somehow one of the dummy rounds was actually a live round. That situation requires the one fuck up, of the wrong kind of round getting in the pile of dummy rounds. Any other situation would need multiple fuckups, so the former seems the most likely to me.

[funkychinaman]

Multiple eff-ups appears to be the case:

https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/23/enter...day/index.html

"Three crew members who were on the set last weekend told the Times there were two accidental prop gun discharges before Thursday.

The rounds were accidentally fired October 16 by Baldwin's stunt double after he was told the gun was "cold," two of the crew members, who witnessed the discharges, told the newspaper."

[MoviePropMaster2008]

Originally Posted by funkychinaman

Multiple eff-ups appears to be the case:

https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/23/enter...day/index.html

"Three crew members who were on the set last weekend told the Times there were two accidental prop gun discharges before Thursday.

The rounds were accidentally fired October 16 by Baldwin's stunt double after he was told the gun was "cold," two of the crew members, who witnessed the discharges, told the newspaper."

Yep. Those are 'negligent discharges'. WTF. I hate how the media calls them 'misfires', which actually means FAILURE to fire. What they were witnessing were Accidental discharges or Negligent Discharges. Also who is telling the actors that their guns are cold "aka not loaded with blanks". A 'hot gun' on set means it's loaded with blanks. No one ever expects LIVE aka real lethal ammunition on a set since they're BANNED from even being on site. I've had security kick out people who brought live ammo to a set and I personally inspected ALL blanks being loaded into weapons on the set.

Being a western It's most likely a single action revolver. I wonder if that particular gun, when the hammer was cocked, had a 'hair trigger'. Either way, to fire the gun meant that the DOUCHBAG STUNT DOUBLE or the DOUCHBAG BALDWIN were still DRY FIRING a supposedly unloaded gun. Something they're not supposed to do, even with a 'cold gun'.

[Jcordell]

Based on my experience I had a feeling many interesting details would emerge. What a giant goat-rope.

[commando552]

Originally Posted by MoviePropMaster2008

Yep. Those are 'negligent discharges'. WTF. I hate how the media calls them 'misfires', which actually means FAILURE to fire. What they were witnessing were Accidental discharges or Negligent Discharges. Also who is telling the actors that their guns are cold "aka not loaded with blanks". A 'hot gun' on set means it's loaded with blanks. No one ever expects LIVE aka real lethal ammunition on a set since they're BANNED from even being on site. I've had security kick out people who brought live ammo to a set and I personally inspected ALL blanks being loaded into weapons on the set.

Being a western It's most likely a single action revolver. I wonder if that particular gun, when the hammer was cocked, had a 'hair trigger'. Either way, to fire the gun meant that the DOUCHBAG STUNT DOUBLE or the DOUCHBAG BALDWIN were still DRY FIRING a supposedly unloaded gun. Something they're not supposed to do, even with a 'cold gun'.

Baldwin was not intentionally dry firing from what I have read. Apparently they were rehearsing a scene where he was drawing the revolver and pointing it at the camera. He did it once, reholstered, and the 2nd time he ND'd on the draw.

As for where the live rounds came from, supposedly crew members were taking the movie guns out into the desert on their down time to do target practice with live rounds. That sounds so ridiculously and obviously risky that it makes me wonder if it is true, but based on the past conduct and comments of the armourer I think I can believe it.

Just to add, the thing about here being scared of blanks is not being correctly reported by a lot of places which make it seems like she was scared of blanks themselves. The full context is that she described it as "scary" when she first had to load a blank into a revolver with dummy rounds in the other chambers and make it so that the blank was the round that fired on the first trigger pull. I think the thing that makes it "scary" for her is that she admits that she looks down the front of the cylinder to check that the blank is next to the barrel. To me this is worse than her just being scared of blanks, as it shows her fundamental lack of understanding for the mehanics and safe handling procedures.

Quote from the podcast whe was on: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FCdB5cQX...jpg&name=large

[funkychinaman]

So apparently the AD had some safety issues in the past:

https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/24/enter...nts/index.html

As for the armorer, according to an earlier article, she's a second generation armorer, so I'd be odd if she was afraid of blanks.

[MT2008]

Originally Posted by funkychinaman

So apparently the AD had some safety issues in the past:

https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/24/enter...nts/index.html

As for the armorer, according to an earlier article, she's a second generation armorer, so I'd be odd if she was afraid of blanks.

The media is now widely reporting that the armorer was Hannah Gutierrez-Reed; she's the daughter of Thell Reed, who is one of the most respected armorers and gun coaches in the business. (He's worked on a lot of Westerns, ranging from "Gunsmoke" to "Tombstone", plus modern action films that are IMFDB favorites, such as "Proof of Life" and "44 Minutes.") And...predictably, some media outlets are already digging up derogatory reporting on her:

https://nypost.com/2021/10/23/rust-a...o-child-actor/

I have to admit that I'm ready to just throw up my hands and say that we need to just shut it all out until the investigation is complete. I suspect, though, that the ultimate finding will be that this incident was the result of collective irresponsibility on the part of many folks involved in the production.

Originally Posted by MoviePropMaster2008

Ummmm. Not quite true, the laws have changed in the last 10 years. Sorry. in California ANY LIVE firearms on set must have a licensed person (either an FFL or a state issued Firearms Entertainment Permit). That includes all firing weapons, even pre 1898 ones. The fact that many productions VIOLATE the law (these are codified in CA penal code) doesn't make it not true. Since the vast majority of Movies and TV shows filmed in the US are still in California, that makes those rules, the rule, not the exception.

It is interesting that the CREW of the movie "The Crow" in 1993 was from North Carolina. The CREW of "Rust" in 2021 were from New Mexico. Notice that none of them were California Crews. If anything we in CA have the most draconian gun regulations on movie sets. And yet, it's the CA politicians that want to punish us more.

Interesting. I did not realize California's laws have changed. And I also acknowledge that the movie gun business is not my profession; I'm just a guy who has talked to many armorers over the years (yourself included).

With that being said, you do acknowledge that a licensed handler was not ALWAYS required on set until recently in California? That is something I have been told many times by the armorers that I know - when I've discussed shows with them, plenty of them have told me that they only handled the NFA weapons on-set and that the propmaster's team handled all other (non-NFA) firearms. It has been widely reported that the incident on "The Crow" happened, in part, because the production decided to send the armorer home, since the scene involving Brandon Lee's death didn't require any NFA weapons and they were trying to save money by not having to pay somebody whose presence wasn't required on-set. So they left one of the assistant propmasters in charge of the guns (all pistols and revolvers) that were being used, and the particular propmaster who handled the .44 Magnum revolver used to kill Lee was not experienced enough to know what he was doing. While "The Crow" was shot in my home state of North Carolina (as you mention), I've heard similar stories about propmasters handling the non-NFA firearms from other armorers who are working (or worked) in California.

Originally Posted by MoviePropMaster2008

Being a western It's most likely a single action revolver. I wonder if that particular gun, when the hammer was cocked, had a 'hair trigger'. Either way, to fire the gun meant that the DOUCHBAG STUNT DOUBLE or the DOUCHBAG BALDWIN were still DRY FIRING a supposedly unloaded gun. Something they're not supposed to do, even with a 'cold gun'.

Out of curiosity, are most revolvers nowadays being plugged? I know that revolvers don't need a BFA to cycle, the way that semi-autos do, but not sure what safety measures are taken even with those guns. I do find it interesting that all of the deaths that have occurred in Hollywood with prop weapons happened with revolvers.

Originally Posted by commando552

As for where the live rounds came from, supposedly crew members were taking the movie guns out into the desert on their down time to do target practice with live rounds. That sounds so ridiculously and obviously risky that it makes me wonder if it is true, but based on the past conduct and comments of the armourer I think I can believe it.

I can't...I had deja vu when I read your post. I remember reading that after Brandon Lee's death on "The Crow," the exact same rumor began circulating: Folks involved in the production began leaking to the media (and the early Internet) that members of the crew would take the guns from the propmaster's trailer, buy live ammunition from a local sporting goods store in Wilmington, and shoot them in the backlot of the studio. The implication being, somebody brought a live .44 Magnum round to the set and mixed it with the blanks, and that's how a real bullet got put into the gun. As far as I know, that rumor has never been verified and was largely debunked by the final investigation report. (Remember: this was the 1990s, in the days before the Internet and smartphones made it almost impossible to get away with spreading those kinds of rumors.)

Originally Posted by commando552

Just to add, the thing about here being scared of blanks is not being correctly reported by a lot of places which make it seems like she was scared of blanks themselves. The full context is that she described it as "scary" when she first had to load a blank into a revolver with dummy rounds in the other chambers and make it so that the blank was the round that fired on the first trigger pull. I think the thing that makes it "scary" for her is that she admits that she looks down the front of the cylinder to check that the blank is next to the barrel. To me this is worse than her just being scared of blanks, as it shows her fundamental lack of understanding for the mehanics and safe handling procedures.

Quote from the podcast whe was on: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FCdB5cQX...jpg&name=large

Frankly, the only thing that I'm getting from that interview is that she's a typical Gen Z'er who overshares on the Internet (you tell that she's nervous, too, by the way she's rambling and almost losing her train of thought). If I were her, and I were in a job which requires me to be responsible for so many people's safety, I don't think I would have said what she said, certainly not on the record. There are some jobs where you should never share your feelings openly, and being an armorer strikes me as one of those jobs.