Prop Gun Shooting. One crewmember dead New Mexico filmset

[MoviePropMaster2008]

As an armorer this sickens me. Also I can't tell you how many times I've YELLED at actors and crew for fucking with the firearms on set. They don't know what they're doing. They dry fire the weapons. In the case of Brandon Lee, they squib fired a dummy bullet that had a live primer in it, but no one SHOULD have dry fired the damned revolver in the first place. I get pissed off when I see primer marks in my dummy rounds with 'fake intact primers' for the camera. But it's mostly ANTI GUN or folks who don't know shit about guns who do all that horseplay on set.

Prayers to those who have died and are injured.

[MT2008]

Originally Posted by MoviePropMaster2008

As an armorer this sickens me. Also I can't tell you how many times I've YELLED at actors and crew for fucking with the firearms on set. They don't know what they're doing. They dry fire the weapons. In the case of Brandon Lee, they squib fired a dummy bullet that had a live primer in it, but no one SHOULD have dry fired the damned revolver in the first place. I get pissed off when I see primer marks in my dummy rounds with 'fake intact primers' for the camera. But it's mostly ANTI GUN or folks who don't know shit about guns who do all that horseplay on set.

Prayers to those who have died and are injured.

This will probably make your blood boil as much as it did mine:

Firearm experts, writers and producers have wondered aloud how the incident on the “Rust” set occurred. While some producers insist on using prop guns with blanks to closely capture the sound and look of a real gun firing, others have been calling for them to be banished from film sets, saying that computer-generated imaging offers a safer alternative.

“There’s no reason to have guns loaded with blanks or anything on set anymore,” tweeted director Craig Zobel, whose credits include the 2020 film “The Hunt” and HBO’s “Mare of Easttown.” “Should just be fully outlawed. There’s computers now.”

Quote comes from here, but there's a more in-depth story here.

Setting aside the tastelessness of the fact that this liberal idiot is using this tragedy to promote his political agenda, does anyone else get just as annoyed that someone is calling for yet more CGI in movies? It's bad enough that Hollywood over-uses CGI as it is (not just for "special effects" shots, but now everything from actors' appearances to weather). It's not even politically partisan to agree that CGed-out movies are diminishing the artistic merit of film production; I have almost never heard anyone arguing that more shots in movies using more CG effects is a good thing. Well, at least now I know to boycott Craig Zobel...

Side note: Movie armorers have a record of only a handful of fatal accidents (or even serious injuries) with movie guns in more than a century. The WaPo article cites exactly two from the past 50 years that are known well (Brandon Lee's death in the set of "The Crow", and John Erick Hexum). I'm pretty sure that pyrotechnics and various stunts have killed far more people than prop guns. Where will the Nanny State proponents turn their attention next?

[Jcordell]

I'm interested in what the investigation will turn up. For example it's been determined that part of the problem with what happened on "The Crow" was the overall work conditions. Long hours, poor adherence to safety guidelines, penny pinching and people who weren't qualified to be acting as movie armorers doing just that. Not to mention many other mistakes that were made. The producers can shoulder some of the burden for that fiasco don't you think?

Baldwin is one of the producers on the movie so I'm very curious to see what ,if anything, comes out of the investigation.

I find myself wondering about something else as well. Alec Baldwin has been a very hostile/vocal hypercritic of police officers in the United States. I've no doubt that he has been treated with the highest level of professionalism and courtesy by the investigating officers and I bet he expects it to be that way. He probably hasn't been a jerk to the officers though I could be wrong. I'm also willing to bet that had a lawyer there as fast as the physical universe allows.

[MT2008]

Originally Posted by Jcordell

I'm interested in what the investigation will turn up. For example it's been determined that part of the problem with what happened on "The Crow" was the overall work conditions. Long hours, poor adherence to safety guidelines, penny pinching and people who weren't qualified to be acting as movie armorers doing just that. Not to mention many other mistakes that were made. The producers can shoulder some of the burden for that fiasco don't you think?

For what it's worth: There are MANY productions where people who are not movie armorers are in charge of some or all of the firearms. In the U.S., a licensed handler is only required when there are NFA weapons being used on-set (this is different, of course, in other countries which have stricter gun laws). If the production is only renting non-NFA firearms, it's generally going to be the property master and their assistant(s) who handle those guns, and most propmasters are not weapons experts. Even in those circumstances, accidents with guns on film/TV productions are rare. That's not to say that misuse of guns doesn't happen; as MPM has indicated, it does. Just that the negligence almost never rises to a threshold that leads to deaths.

Many film productions are also done on tight shooting schedules where lots of people work very long hours and are constantly sleep-deprived. Even in those circumstances, accidents are still rare. I think that "The Crow" was just a unique case of very bad luck which, unfortunately, cost a promising young actor his life. This is not to say that negligence did not happen (it clearly did) or that the individuals responsible cannot be held at fault; just that bad luck also factored in. I suspect that the same is true on "Rust."

Originally Posted by Jcordell

I find myself wondering about something else as well. Alec Baldwin has been a very hostile/vocal hypercritic of police officers in the United States. I've no doubt that he has been treated with the highest level of professionalism and courtesy by the investigating officers and I bet he expects it to be that way. He probably hasn't been a jerk to the officers though I could be wrong. I'm also willing to bet that had a lawyer there as fast as the physical universe allows.

I don't think I had heard that; so many celebrities were loudmouths about defunding the police last year that I tuned many of them out.

[Jcordell]

For what it's worth: There are MANY productions where people who are not movie armorers are in charge of some or all of the firearms. In the U.S., a licensed handler is only required when there are NFA weapons being used on-set (this is different, of course, in other countries which have stricter gun laws). If the production is only renting non-NFA firearms, it's generally going to be the property master and their assistant(s) who handle those guns, and most propmasters are not weapons experts. Even in those circumstances, accidents with guns on film/TV productions are rare. That's not to say that misuse of guns doesn't happen; as MPM has indicated, it does. Just that the negligence almost never rises to a threshold that leads to deaths.

Many film productions are also done on tight shooting schedules where lots of people work very long hours and are constantly sleep-deprived. Even in those circumstances, accidents are still rare. I think that "The Crow" was just a unique case of very bad luck which, unfortunately, cost a promising young actor his life. This is not to say that negligence did not happen (it clearly did) or that the individuals responsible cannot be held at fault; just that bad luck also factored in. I suspect that the same is true on "Rust."

Good point. I'm not in the business so I bow to your experience and knowledge. Terrible situation all around.


Over the past few years Baldwin had made a few statements ,regarding officer involved shootings, in interviews and some really offensive remarks on social media. I don't look for them either, but it isn't uncommon for other officers to talk about those things at work. Especially younger officers who also live much of their life on Twitter, Instagram and so forth.

Last year the gushing of vitriol, much of it from athletes and other celebs, was a constant topic of discussion at work as you might imagine. Many of the younger officers were bothered and hurt by it all and it was fairly common for e-mails to be sent out with various quotes from all of those folks. In particular I remember Baldwin, LeBron James, Alyssa Milano and Samuel Jackson.

Things are quieter now, but the profession has an institutional memory I suppose.

[Rockwolf66]

"Rumor" has it that the firearm used somehow had a live round in it.

Also rumor that Baldwin was fucking around with said firearm right before they shot two people.

Among some of my friends this is a major subject as we all love firearms and films.

[funkychinaman]

From CNN:

https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/22/enter...ent/index.html

"A search warrant issued by the Santa Fe County Sheriff's Office and obtained by CNN affiliate KOAT revealed that Baldwin was handed one of three prop guns by assistant director David Halls that were set up in a cart by an armorer.
Halls handed the gun to Baldwin and yelled "cold gun," meaning the gun did not have live rounds, the affidavit states.
The gun fired by Baldwin hit Hutchins in the chest and wounded Souza, who was behind her while rehearsing a scene, in the shoulder. She was pronounced dead at a hospital after being transported by helicopter.
The investigator says in the affidavit that the assistant director did not know the gun had live rounds when he handed the gun to Baldwin."

Why would there ever be live rounds on set at all?

[MoviePropMaster2008]

Originally Posted by MT2008

For what it's worth: There are MANY productions where people who are not movie armorers are in charge of some or all of the firearms. In the U.S., a licensed handler is only required when there are NFA weapons being used on-set (this is different, of course, in other countries which have stricter gun laws). If the production is only renting non-NFA firearms, it's generally going to be the property master and their assistant(s) who handle those guns, and most propmasters are not weapons experts.

Ummmm. Not quite true, the laws have changed in the last 10 years. Sorry. in California ANY LIVE firearms on set must have a licensed person (either an FFL or a state issued Firearms Entertainment Permit). That includes all firing weapons, even pre 1898 ones. The fact that many productions VIOLATE the law (these are codified in CA penal code) doesn't make it not true. Since the vast majority of Movies and TV shows filmed in the US are still in California, that makes those rules, the rule, not the exception.

It is interesting that the CREW of the movie "The Crow" in 1993 was from North Carolina. The CREW of "Rust" in 2021 were from New Mexico. Notice that none of them were California Crews. If anything we in CA have the most draconian gun regulations on movie sets. And yet, it's the CA politicians that want to punish us more.

Interesting that we have some of those indie films who designate some "know nothing" 20 yr old girl, who doesn't know firearms at all, as the set 'weapons wrangler'. That's a recipe for disaster sadly. I heard that the 'Armorer' was a 24 year old woman, and this was her FIRST job EVER as an armorer and that she was terrified of 'blanks'. Uh, what???? Also she may not have been on set when the accident occurred and the 24 yr old Assistant Director (who was another woman who knew nothing about guns) was the person who handed the firearm to Baldwin. The entire thing sounds bizarre.