SIG-Sauer P320 to replace Beretta M9

[funkychinaman]

Originally Posted by Mazryonh

I don't know anything about SOCOM or whether they've heard about or even given 10mm Auto handguns/SMGs a fair shake.

That's fair. I'm sure one day they'll take a minute to evaluate a cartridge that's been available for over thirty years.

I think it's safe to assume they've heard about it. I'm sure someone in SOCOM has seen an episode of Miami Vice or read a firearms publication since 1983.

[Excalibur]

I thought the FBI HRT retired the MP5/10 because it was overpowered for a platform that was never designed for it

[Mazryonh]

Originally Posted by funkychinaman

That's fair. I'm sure one day they'll take a minute to evaluate a cartridge that's been available for over thirty years.

I think it's safe to assume they've heard about it. I'm sure someone in SOCOM has seen an episode of Miami Vice or read a firearms publication since 1983.

There's no need to be sarcastic. But given the examples you brought up, hasn't the MP5 in 9mm had a long history among the special forces? If the MP5/10 was more widely available I think they'd see it as a straight upgrade. The advantages are substantial and the infrastructure is already there.

Originally Posted by Excalibur

I thought the FBI HRT retired the MP5/10 because it was overpowered for a platform that was never designed for it

Wasn't there a variant of the HK G3 battle rifle (the base platform for the MP5) that used 5.56mm NATO, called the HK33? I think it's clear that the G3 platform could handle the pressures of the 10mm, if the right variant of the G3 was made.

[Evil Tim]

Originally Posted by Mazryonh

There's no need to be sarcastic. But given the examples you brought up, hasn't the MP5 in 9mm had a long history among the special forces? If the MP5/10 was more widely available I think they'd see it as a straight upgrade. The advantages are substantial and the infrastructure is already there.

Actually most of the advantages of 9mm in SF and police use are in things like not penetrating walls as much, they don't necessarily want a more powerful round for the work they do with subguns. Also 10mm rounds are over twice as expensive as 9mm.

[funkychinaman]

Originally Posted by Evil Tim

Actually most of the advantages of 9mm in SF and police use are in things like not penetrating walls as much, they don't necessarily want a more powerful round for the work they do with subguns. Also 10mm rounds are over twice as expensive as 9mm.

And if they wanted more power, then there's various AR carbines in 5.56.

Sorry about the sarcasm, but it's like arguing for Betamax at this point. The 10mm Auto had its chance, and for a variety of reasons, no one bit. It's time to move on.

[Mazryonh]

Originally Posted by funkychinaman

And if they wanted more power, then there's various AR carbines in 5.56.

Sorry about the sarcasm, but it's like arguing for Betamax at this point. The 10mm Auto had its chance, and for a variety of reasons, no one bit. It's time to move on.

Betamax? "Be kind, rewind!"

But seriously, aren't you glad electronic trends like Moore's Law don't apply to the laws of ballistics (which are the same as they were in the 1980s and before) and ballistic weapons in general? We still use muzzleloaders, airguns, bows, and even slingshots. Obsolescence in ballistic weaponry isn't quite as cut-and-dry as obsolescence in the IT world. Besides, the infrastructure that once supported Betamax is long gone. 10mm Auto ammunition on the other hand still has existing infrastructure to support it, or infrastructure that could be easily converted to do so.

Here are some interesting links. I don't know if this is current but here's a link saying that the FBI Hostage Rescue Team still uses the MP5/10. I've heard elsewhere that H&K still supplies them with replacement parts.

There's another magazine article here that outlines a couple other reasons why the MP5 is useful in CQB over the M4 and other 5.56mm SBRs. One was the lowered noise level of the MP5, even while unsuppressed, to reduce hearing damage and suppressor wear. Another was that friendly fire incidents with the MP5 were much less likely to be lethal since most kevlar is good enough to stop 9mm rounds, while you need a Level III or Level IV armour plate to stop 5.56mm NATO rounds (and that might not even stop AP versions). The need for AP fire was covered by one or a few members of a team carrying an M4. Yes, this article was written before the adoption of .300 BLK in M4 carbines for subsonic suppressed fire, but I'll get to that shortly.

So there is in fact some evidence that the 10mm in SMG or pistol-caliber carbine form could be a good solution to bridge the capability gap between SMGs and SBRs (i.e., being able to get good midrange performance with ease of suppression with subsonic ammo), most especially in an LEO context where the ability to share ammunition between handguns and SMGs can simplify logistics (and I haven't heard of any .300 BLK semiauto handguns). Being able to shoot through car windshields is also something some 5.56mm NATO loadings have trouble with, whereas 10mm in full-power loadings has less trouble doing so.

There's also the possibility to close the AP capability gap (at least at short range) by loading 10mm ammo with penetrators, just like the Russians did with their 9mm AP loadings. With greater case volume available in 10mm Auto than the 9x19mm cartridge, you could get more effective range while retaining AP abilities than the lightly-loaded and overpressured 9mm AP projectiles can.

[Mandolin]

Originally Posted by Mazryonh

But seriously, aren't you glad electronic trends like Moore's Law don't apply to the laws of ballistics (which are the same as they were in the 1980s and before) and ballistic weapons in general? We still use muzzleloaders, airguns, bows, and even slingshots. Obsolescence in ballistic weaponry isn't quite as cut-and-dry as obsolescence in the IT world. Besides, the infrastructure that once supported Betamax is long gone. 10mm Auto ammunition on the other hand still has existing infrastructure to support it, or infrastructure that could be easily converted to do so.

No one uses that stuff in combat though

Originally Posted by Mazryonh

Here are some interesting links. I don't know if this is current but here's a link saying that the FBI Hostage Rescue Team still uses the MP5/10. I've heard elsewhere that H&K still supplies them with replacement parts.

I may be mistaken, but there's a notable lack of MP5s in HRT hands recently. They're using HK416s or other shorty M4s.

Originally Posted by Mazryonh

There's another magazine article here that outlines a couple other reasons why the MP5 is useful in CQB over the M4 and other 5.56mm SBRs. One was the lowered noise level of the MP5, even while unsuppressed, to reduce hearing damage and suppressor wear. Another was that friendly fire incidents with the MP5 were much less likely to be lethal since most kevlar is good enough to stop 9mm rounds, while you need a Level III or Level IV armour plate to stop 5.56mm NATO rounds (and that might not even stop AP versions). The need for AP fire was covered by one or a few members of a team carrying an M4. Yes, this article was written before the adoption of .300 BLK in M4 carbines for subsonic suppressed fire, but I'll get to that shortly.

"We use 9mm so we don't kill each other" is the dumbest possible reason to use a MP5. Stop shooting each other!

[Spartan198]

Originally Posted by Mandolin

"We use 9mm so we don't kill each other" is the dumbest possible reason to use a MP5. Stop shooting each other!

https://youtu.be/gNMXl9Xj72c?t=2m40s

[Mazryonh]

Originally Posted by Mandolin

No one uses that stuff in combat though.

The point remains that unlike Moore's Law, human bodies have remained as vulnerable as ever to ballistic trauma. That's why killing people with those weapons is just as viable as it was centuries ago.

You might also be interested in how the US Army released an RFI for "Sub Compact Weapons" in 9x19mm on May 2, 2018.

Originally Posted by Mandolin

I may be mistaken, but there's a notable lack of MP5s in HRT hands recently. They're using HK416s or other shorty M4s.

I didn't say that the article was current up-to-the-second.

Originally Posted by Mandolin

"We use 9mm so we don't kill each other" is the dumbest possible reason to use a MP5. Stop shooting each other!

Hey, don't shoot the messenger. We still have NDs with pistols, and "green zone attacks" from people who are recruited and make it somewhere but end up taking out their vendettas against their putative allies and comrades-in-arms.

In other news, there's a lot of recent news articles about organizations adopting the M17 or M18 MHS handgun.

• The USAF and USN are looking to order the M18 version of the P320.
• The USMC is following suit with the US Army and adopting the MHS as well.
• There are also people claiming that the P320 is a "total game changer."