SIG-Sauer P320 to replace Beretta M9

[Excalibur]

Originally Posted by Evil Tim

The main issue is that 10mm Auto has a really bad reputation in military / LE because none of the early guns that fired it worked properly and a lot of the early ammo was faulty.

I thought the primary reason for not adopting the 10mm was because women and some "weak" men can't handle the recoil, so they then took some powder out and then got the bright idea of creating the .40 S&W

[Mazryonh]

Originally Posted by funkychinaman

SOCOM has tremendous leeway when it comes to weapons selection, and they're happy with 9mm and .45 ACP.

I don't know anything about SOCOM or whether they've heard about or even given 10mm Auto handguns/SMGs a fair shake.

Originally Posted by Spartan198

Same caliber, but different rounds. That was the M193 series. The round chosen for NATO standardization was the SS109/M855.

They still used 5.56x45mm for a long time before it became a NATO standard. Essentially they went it alone and waited for the other NATO members to follow suit.

Originally Posted by Evil Tim

The main issue is that 10mm Auto has a really bad reputation in military / LE because none of the early guns that fired it worked properly and a lot of the early ammo was faulty.

You could say the same about the early-model M16s and the early 5.56x45mm combat loadings. I'd say that the 10mm has already proven itself quite a bit, just not in many well-known professional environments. The FBI HRT still uses the MP5/10, for instance.

Originally Posted by Excalibur

I thought the primary reason for not adopting the 10mm was because women and some "weak" men can't handle the recoil, so they then took some powder out and then got the bright idea of creating the .40 S&W

That was the case for the FBI. Had things been a little different, such as if the 10mm had been put into a Mini-Uzi-type platform, or even a variant of the M2 Carbine, or an MP5K-PDW, for use as a PDW or even compact duty weapon for a Law Enforcement Agency, then it would have been much more controllable since those platforms have more points of contact than handguns.

A lot of people don't want to take the effort to master the weapons they're issued. Budget issues also don't help since weapon qualifications are usually not very often either. If those women and "weak" men made some honest efforts, more of them might have been able to handle 10mm handguns. New platforms like the B&T Universal Service Weapon would definitely help though.

[Evil Tim]

Originally Posted by Mazryonh

You could say the same about the early-model M16s and the early 5.56x45mm combat loadings.

You could indeed, but the Army knew damn well they weren't going to get another new rifle after the M14 had the shortest service life of any standard-issue rifle in US history, so they were going to have to make it work. If the FBI had bought a million 10mm Auto guns rather than a handful you'd have seen the same thing, but they didn't.

[funkychinaman]

Originally Posted by Mazryonh

I don't know anything about SOCOM or whether they've heard about or even given 10mm Auto handguns/SMGs a fair shake.

That's fair. I'm sure one day they'll take a minute to evaluate a cartridge that's been available for over thirty years.

I think it's safe to assume they've heard about it. I'm sure someone in SOCOM has seen an episode of Miami Vice or read a firearms publication since 1983.

[Excalibur]

I thought the FBI HRT retired the MP5/10 because it was overpowered for a platform that was never designed for it

[Mazryonh]

Originally Posted by funkychinaman

That's fair. I'm sure one day they'll take a minute to evaluate a cartridge that's been available for over thirty years.

I think it's safe to assume they've heard about it. I'm sure someone in SOCOM has seen an episode of Miami Vice or read a firearms publication since 1983.

There's no need to be sarcastic. But given the examples you brought up, hasn't the MP5 in 9mm had a long history among the special forces? If the MP5/10 was more widely available I think they'd see it as a straight upgrade. The advantages are substantial and the infrastructure is already there.

Originally Posted by Excalibur

I thought the FBI HRT retired the MP5/10 because it was overpowered for a platform that was never designed for it

Wasn't there a variant of the HK G3 battle rifle (the base platform for the MP5) that used 5.56mm NATO, called the HK33? I think it's clear that the G3 platform could handle the pressures of the 10mm, if the right variant of the G3 was made.

[Evil Tim]

Originally Posted by Mazryonh

There's no need to be sarcastic. But given the examples you brought up, hasn't the MP5 in 9mm had a long history among the special forces? If the MP5/10 was more widely available I think they'd see it as a straight upgrade. The advantages are substantial and the infrastructure is already there.

Actually most of the advantages of 9mm in SF and police use are in things like not penetrating walls as much, they don't necessarily want a more powerful round for the work they do with subguns. Also 10mm rounds are over twice as expensive as 9mm.

[funkychinaman]

Originally Posted by Evil Tim

Actually most of the advantages of 9mm in SF and police use are in things like not penetrating walls as much, they don't necessarily want a more powerful round for the work they do with subguns. Also 10mm rounds are over twice as expensive as 9mm.

And if they wanted more power, then there's various AR carbines in 5.56.

Sorry about the sarcasm, but it's like arguing for Betamax at this point. The 10mm Auto had its chance, and for a variety of reasons, no one bit. It's time to move on.

[Mazryonh]

Originally Posted by funkychinaman

And if they wanted more power, then there's various AR carbines in 5.56.

Sorry about the sarcasm, but it's like arguing for Betamax at this point. The 10mm Auto had its chance, and for a variety of reasons, no one bit. It's time to move on.

Betamax? "Be kind, rewind!"

But seriously, aren't you glad electronic trends like Moore's Law don't apply to the laws of ballistics (which are the same as they were in the 1980s and before) and ballistic weapons in general? We still use muzzleloaders, airguns, bows, and even slingshots. Obsolescence in ballistic weaponry isn't quite as cut-and-dry as obsolescence in the IT world. Besides, the infrastructure that once supported Betamax is long gone. 10mm Auto ammunition on the other hand still has existing infrastructure to support it, or infrastructure that could be easily converted to do so.

Here are some interesting links. I don't know if this is current but here's a link saying that the FBI Hostage Rescue Team still uses the MP5/10. I've heard elsewhere that H&K still supplies them with replacement parts.

There's another magazine article here that outlines a couple other reasons why the MP5 is useful in CQB over the M4 and other 5.56mm SBRs. One was the lowered noise level of the MP5, even while unsuppressed, to reduce hearing damage and suppressor wear. Another was that friendly fire incidents with the MP5 were much less likely to be lethal since most kevlar is good enough to stop 9mm rounds, while you need a Level III or Level IV armour plate to stop 5.56mm NATO rounds (and that might not even stop AP versions). The need for AP fire was covered by one or a few members of a team carrying an M4. Yes, this article was written before the adoption of .300 BLK in M4 carbines for subsonic suppressed fire, but I'll get to that shortly.

So there is in fact some evidence that the 10mm in SMG or pistol-caliber carbine form could be a good solution to bridge the capability gap between SMGs and SBRs (i.e., being able to get good midrange performance with ease of suppression with subsonic ammo), most especially in an LEO context where the ability to share ammunition between handguns and SMGs can simplify logistics (and I haven't heard of any .300 BLK semiauto handguns). Being able to shoot through car windshields is also something some 5.56mm NATO loadings have trouble with, whereas 10mm in full-power loadings has less trouble doing so.

There's also the possibility to close the AP capability gap (at least at short range) by loading 10mm ammo with penetrators, just like the Russians did with their 9mm AP loadings. With greater case volume available in 10mm Auto than the 9x19mm cartridge, you could get more effective range while retaining AP abilities than the lightly-loaded and overpressured 9mm AP projectiles can.