I sure hate America Bashers..... Arghhh.:mad:

[MT2008]

Originally Posted by Ace Oliveira

Well, Giving Palestine back to Egypt and Jordan seems like a good idea. The problem is there is four million people in there. And if Palestine becomes Jordan and Egypt, what the hell do you think the palestinian extremists are going to do? They are going to start fucking up Jordan and Egypt. They will want independence because they want to go out and fight the Israelis once more.

The Palestinians will never fuck up Jordan or Egypt, for the simple fact that if they act up, both countries will gladly Black September the Pals' asses into submission. Unlike the Israelis, Arab countries almost never make peace deals with resistance groups within their borders...they simply clamp down upon them ruthlessly, and genocide the populations if the resistance gains popular support.

And as cold as it may sound, I really could care less if that's what happens to the Palestinians. I just can't bring myself to feel a whole lot of sympathy for them, no matter how much I might occasionally find the Israelis detestable.

Originally Posted by Ace Oliveira

And for the democratic arab countries. There is Jordan. It's not democratic but the King did say he wants Jordan to be a Democratic country. He took some steps towards democracy. Small steps but steps none the less. It has awesome liberal heads of state. There are problems in the country such as the lack of water and lack of oil but their Nuclear powerplants the Jordanian government is building would help with those problems.

Jordan is way, WAY away from being a democracy. It is a secular monarchy with a minor facade of democracy laid out on top. If Jordan is the best case you can cite for Arab democracy, you've got a serious problem.

The norm in the Arab world has been gangsters like Saddam and Qaddafi, and that is why I really don't think we need any more Arab countries. Their record doesn't lie. Those people are not capable of building democratic, free societies. They won't be until they (A.) become much more secular, (B.) learn how to educate themselves and build functioning societies, and (C.) stop blaming everyone else (meaning, America and Israel) for their problems.

Originally Posted by Ace Oliveira

If the protesters in Iran can finally top the Ayatollah and Dinner Jacket, then we would have Iran too.

...which, unfortunately, is not going to happen. I respect the bravery of the Iranian protesters, but the unfortunate fact is that they're outnumbered and will never be able to develop into a major revolutionary movement. For every one of the pro-democracy protesters, there are about 20 ultra-conservative Shi'a who support Ahmadinejad and are proud of the Islamic Revolution. Iran, too, is going to need to undergo enormous cultural change before it will become a democracy.

[Ace Oliveira]

Even though i doubt about Jordan going genocide on the Palestinian's asses, i think Egypt would do it.

About Jordan, they are not an democracy, but they are way better than most countries around it.

And Iran, they had a huge cultural change since the revolution. Most of the young adults and teenagers are liberal as hell. That is your cultural Revolution right there. However, the Shia motherfuckers are always there, mostly in the rural areas. Also, after all those protests and all the horrible shit the Iranian Government did to the protesters, no one will want to anything with Iran. Their foreign policy will be worst than it is now, especially here in the United States.

[Spartan198]

Iran, much like North Korea, would make a better sheet of radioactive glass on the ground than it is a sovereign nation...

What happened to the good old days when you could threaten rogue nations with nuclear annihilation if they didn't do what we told them to do? :P

[Ace Oliveira]

Originally Posted by Spartan198

Iran, much like North Korea, would make a better sheet of radioactive glass on the ground than it is a sovereign nation...

What happened to the good old days when you could threaten rogue nations with nuclear annihilation if they didn't do what we told them to do? :P

What the motherfuck? So nukes are our way of dealing with things now? Iran would make a more than great ally in the middle east if the protesters win. Besides, you how retarded it sounds when the United States goes around evil countries saying that they can't have nukes when the US has thousands of them? Either the American Government gets rid of their nukes, or they will just sound like hypocrites. We don't need nuclear weapons anymore. Iran may have them and DRPK may have them too, but we don't need to sink to their level to fight them.

We don't need nukes. Nukes will lead to destruction of nations. It seems we will only learn that when one or two nations become a 3rd world shithole.

[MT2008]

Originally Posted by Ace Oliveira

What the motherfuck? So nukes are our way of dealing with things now?

Chill out. I think he's half-kidding. But anyway, the answer to his question is that threatening nuclear annihilation is kind of pointless. It's not what these stand-offs are really about, anyway.

Originally Posted by Ace Oliveira

Iran would make a more than great ally in the middle east if the protesters win.

...which they won't, as I've told you repeatedly.

Originally Posted by Ace Oliveira

Besides, you how retarded it sounds when the United States goes around evil countries saying that they can't have nukes when the US has thousands of them? Either the American Government gets rid of their nukes, or they will just sound like hypocrites.

We're not hypocritical at all. It's one of the perks of being a global superpower, actually.

Besides, one thing that's often overlooked is that the Russians and Chinese don't want Iran to have nukes either (at least, not implicitly) - they just enjoy using Iran as leverage against the U.S. to get what they want (in Russia's case, that means getting us to not put up ABMs in Poland and the Czech Republic).

Originally Posted by Ace Oliveira

We don't need nuclear weapons anymore. Iran may have them and DRPK may have them too, but we don't need to sink to their level to fight them.

We don't need nukes. Nukes will lead to destruction of nations. It seems we will only learn that when one or two nations become a 3rd world shithole.

Now you're just sounding ridiculous. Nuclear deterrence is all to the good. It means that nobody can go to war without destroying everything, in which case, there's no point in the first place. But arguing that we should NOT have nukes while the DPRK and Iran do is absurd.

And this applies to Iran and the DPRK. They aren't actually going to start nuclear war. Kim Jong Il enjoys his kidnapped Japanese actresses and cognac too much for that, and the same applies to Iran's clerics. They just like being able to use nukes as leverage to get what they want and keep themselves in power. The reason that the U.S. and Israel don't want Iran to have nukes is that we're afraid it will give Iran greater power to do other stuff (like interfere in Gaza, Lebanon, and Iraq by supplying militias) without severe repercussions.

When you get to college and if you go into Poli Sci, try reading Kenneth Waltz. Then maybe you'll understand why what you are saying now is naive bullshit.

[Spartan198]

Originally Posted by Ace Oliveira

What the motherfuck? So nukes are our way of dealing with things now? Iran would make a more than great ally in the middle east if the protesters win. Besides, you how retarded it sounds when the United States goes around evil countries saying that they can't have nukes when the US has thousands of them? Either the American Government gets rid of their nukes, or they will just sound like hypocrites. We don't need nuclear weapons anymore. Iran may have them and DRPK may have them too, but we don't need to sink to their level to fight them.

We don't need nukes. Nukes will lead to destruction of nations. It seems we will only learn that when one or two nations become a 3rd world shithole.

Us having enough nukes to obliterate the world twice over with warheads to spare is what keeps it from descending into utter chaos. But it's not the use that does so, it's the mere existence and perceived use.

Look back at how Europe descended into chaos toward the end of the Western Roman Empire. Why did this happen? Because the legions, the ancient world's WMDs, weren't there to keep the peace and keep all the little warlords in their place. At the same time, the Eastern Empire, which thrived until the 1400s, remained relatively peaceful. Why is that so? Because the legions were still there to "destroy the world" of any little troublemakers.

The major difference between the US having nukes and Iran having nukes is that Iran is lead by a genocidal extremist who's bound to use them at the slightest provocation.

[MT2008]

Originally Posted by Spartan198

The major difference between the US having nukes and Iran having nukes is that Iran is lead by a genocidal extremist who's bound to use them at the slightest provocation.

As I have said, nobody actually believes Iran will use the nukes at "the slightest provocation". They may be Shi'ite fundamentalists, but they still have national interests that involve their country not getting nuked in return. I'm not big into deterrence theory myself, but I can tell you that even the most conservative, anti-Iran scholars in my field do not anticipate Iran ever using its nukes against Israel, or anyone else.

What they're a lot more worried about is how it would affect the regional balance of power and embolden Iran to act more recklessly in Iraq, Lebanon, and Gaza. Also, Israel's possession of nukes is part of what has allowed them to maintain hegemony over the Arab countries, so Iran having nukes might encourage the Arabs to shift away from Israel (though this is not certain, since most Arabs and Persians will always hate each other more than they hate Jews). From the Israeli - and, by extension, the American - point-of-view, this is not acceptable. The Russians and Chinese don't exactly like Iran having nukes, either, but they do like what they can get out of the negotiation process.

[Ace Oliveira]

I can see the deterrance theory, the problem is, we don't know enough about if we finally come to nuclear war. We really don't know if peace using nukes would actually work or if the deterrance would just fail. We really don't know much about either. The only way we will finally know about deterrance and nukes, is when a nuclear war actually starts. It doesn't even need to be a big war, just a small one.

[Jcordell]

Originally Posted by Ace Oliveira

What the motherfuck?

Okay Ace I understand you have aspirations of enlisitng in one of the U.S. military branches in the future. Which is great. When I was in the Army I served with foreign nationals from Switzerland, Canada, Honduras, Mexico, South Korea, Germany, Netherlands, China, Sweden, England, Ireland and Poland. And those are just the ones that I can remember. Many Americans do not realize that foreign nationals have served in our military throughout our nation's exsistence and have made invaluble contributions. Many of them have died in our wars. In some cases wars that their respective nations were not involved with. Something else that is sometimes overlooked by my fellow citizens.

Now soldiers,sailors and airmen swear. Actually they curse all the time. Swear words are basically part of their everyday vocabulary. Here's a tip how to make yourself sound like a native English speaker when cussing. And this is important because your average enlisted member is not politiclly correct and/or enlightened and they'll make fun of you if say "What the motherfuck?"

It is actually stated "What the fuck?" or "what are you a fucking asshole?", or my all time favorite "shut the fuck up asshole." Also you can try "Really? You are one stupid asshole. Did you know that?"

There are other variations, but I thought you might like a tip.

[Ace Oliveira]

Thank you, Jcordell . I started saying that after watching Full Metal Jacket. I though that line was so original that i should start using it in my vocabulary. And yes, there's a huge number of immigrants in the US Armed Forces thanks to the accelerated citizenship.

And now for actual content.

MT2008, i don't know if nukes would actually work as deterrants. We don't know if they are good or bad. We don't know if Nukes are what made NATO and the Soviet Union not go to war. We don't know enough about Nuclear Weapons. We also don't know if any country would be insane enough to use Nukes. Kim Jong-il seems to be crazy enough to do that. I really don't know.