Short Barrel non NFA the new norm

[AdAstra2009]

Originally Posted by Evil Tim

Yeah, with your .410 idea since it isn't a smoothbore it isn't a shotgun, so you don't need to worry about putting a stock on it to get the OAL over 26in turning it back into a shotgun (smoothbore + less than 18in barrel + manufactured with a stock (the gun somehow remembers this) + shotgun gauge = SBS, smoothbore + less than 18in barrel + not manufactured with a stock, even if same model + shotgun gauge = AOW unless you stick an arm brace on it to get the length to over 26in without it being a stock, in which case it falls into a category simply called "firearm:" in something like 12 gauge it dodges becoming a destructive device due to the fact that it fires a shotgun cartridge even though it is legally not a shotgun).

The 26 inch length isn't exact because the AOW category being dodged is weapons that are "readily concealable:" history suggests 26in is the minimum length before the ATF start getting their nope on.

Basically NFA and GCA were laws assembled by monkeys.

So what if I were to have a Remington 870 with a 14 inch barrel with straight cut groove rifling like the Reformation......

[Evil Tim]

Not smoothbore and so not a shotgun, not rifled and so not a rifle, fires a shotgun cartridge and so not a DD. It will get AOW'd unless you can make the OAL 12 inches longer than the barrel.

The big thing that changes is that since adding a stock won't make it a shotgun as it would with a smoothbore that fires a shotgun cartridge (and therefore get it dinged as an SBS on barrel length alone) you don't need to use an arm brace for the "not a stock" length bonus.

[commando552]

The thing that I am unsure of with a 12 gauge using this system is the fact that it is over .50 cal. There is generally an exemption for shotguns that use this round, but the problem in this case is that the whole point of the grooves is to make this weapon legally not a shotgun so I don't see how it falls under that exemption. It fires the same round, but the wording of the exemption uses the term "shotgun", so not one of these things. It probably isn't a problem as Fostech got away with that "firearm" version of the Origin 12 (not a shotgun by definition as it used an arm brace so not designed for firing from the shoulder), but it seems to me that these 12 gauge "firearms" are on kind of thin ice.

Something that just occurred to me, I believe this straight lands and grooves thing was tried a while ago with .45/.410 pistols but it was nixed by the ATF (trying to solve a different problem to this use), but the point is if it has already been done by somebody can Franklin file a patent on it? Their argument is that unlike the historic use of black powder firearms their system is patented as it uses metallic cartridges, but this is not new as it has already been done with shotgun (and by extension .45 LC) rounds. I think there have also been shotguns in the past that used straight rifling on the theory that it stops the wad from spinning producing a more consistent pattern. Incidentally, the inability to use straight rifling lead to these derringers having an incredibly slow twist to the rifling that only covers about 1 inch of the barrel but that is enough apparently (there is no minimum rifling standard by the ATF, it just needs to have some degree of twist).

[Evil Tim]

Originally Posted by commando552

The thing that I am unsure of with a 12 gauge using this system is the fact that it is over .50 cal. There is generally an exemption for shotguns that use this round, but the problem in this case is that the whole point of the grooves is to make this weapon legally not a shotgun so I don't see how it falls under that exemption.

In this case the exemption is on the cartridge, not the weapon

("any type of weapon by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of which have a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter, except a shotgun or shotgun shell which the Secretary or his delegate finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes...")

so you're not a DD because you're firing a common sporting shotgun cartridge even though you're not a shotgun. Otherwise all stockless shotguns would be DDs and they're not, they're AOWs.

The ATF can make individual rulings that guns which fire a shotgun cartridge are destructive devices regardless of their features using the "sporting purpose" test, that's what happened to things like the Street Sweeper and USAS-12.