Pistol questions

[Yournamehere]

Originally Posted by commando552

Agree with most of what you said, but just to correct this point there were actually quite a few mini red dots that were pistol mountable by 2007. They were actually around in the very late 90s I believe, and by the early 2000s there were companies who were factory installing them (e.g. CZ was selling CZ75Bs with sights fitted at least as early as 2002). People had used them in the military in the early 2000s but only a very small number as at this point they were not very reliable, or perhaps more importantly were believed not to be very reliable.

Really? What kind of mini dots existed before the T1 and the RMR that are of similar size and dimensions? And can you elaborate on CZs factory option? That's really interesting.

To a similar effect, I actually remember seeing/reading about old C-More and C-More style sights on frame mounted rail systems, so you've got something there. In fact, I was watching xXx (2002) the other day and was surprised to see the C-More on several rifles and a lot of the custom built pistols in the film. And obviously I'm not a complete expert on the history of red dots in all applications including military use, but I think it's safe to say that they haven't been a mainstream upgrade until the advent of the T1 and RMR and other competing optics. Moreover, the models we have are much smaller, lighter, and different in a multitude of ways from previous pistol red dot combos. And when someone nowadays thinks of a red dot on a pistol, they're conjuring up an image based on RMRs and Deltapoints attached to a milled slide, not COMPs and C-Mores from 10 years ago. I still think using a red dot on a pistol for any time before the last 5 years or so would seem a bit too cutting edge and anachronistic.

[commando552]

Originally Posted by Yournamehere

Really? What kind of mini dots existed before the T1 and the RMR that are of similar size and dimensions? And can you elaborate on CZs factory option? That's really interesting.

I'll just quote form an earlier post as this answers part of this:

I believe that the grand-daddy of all of them was made by a British company called Firepoint (sold in the US as the Tasco Optima 2000), who went out of business in 2002 and subsequently the same sight was made by JPoint, and a metal bodied version by Doctor. By the mid-2000s they were being used in combat by some Special Forces experimentally, however at this point in their development they were not particularly reliable. A sight mounted on a slide takes a bit of a beating, and the sights tended to suffer from wandering zeroes, coming loose of their mounts, or just breaking all together. In the early 2000s some companies did start actually mounting these sorts of sights onto their guns at the factory (you could get CZs fitted with Firepoints on the slide), but these tended to be more for competition rather than military/police use.

Bear in mind that "RMR" stands for "Rugged Mini Reflex", and in itself it is derivative design intended to be a more durable (and hence militarily more viable) alternative to earlier designs. Before this point to most common would have been the Docter, and this was also the sight that would have been mounted most commonly over ACOGs before the RMR came out. I don't know when the Docter was released exactly, but in 2002 there were experimental prototype mounts made by KAC for the military to fit them to ACOGs in the place of the rear sight ring, so that gives you some idea that they were around and used earlier than you might assume.

As for the CZs, I don't know much but apparently they were introduced in 2001 and were a factory option only for a year or two. They were fitted to CZ-75B type pistols on the rear of the slide such as this, along with on the .22 Kadet pistols. They did it a bit different to what is typical today, with the sight being mounted on a sort of saddle to give it a flat surface rather than milling a flat on the slide. This has the advantage that it doesn't need a modified slide (it also means that these sights can be mounted without modifications on other CZs such as this late model Pre-B), but has the disadvantages of having a higher profile and possibly a less consistent fit. At the same time they also sold a variant for competition use called the CZ-75M IPSC which mounted the optic on a frame mount which was a much more secure and proven method. I really like the look of this variant, especially the compensator with the little blast shield for the optic.