Interesting NY Times article on NYPD revolvers.

[MoviePropMaster2008]

Originally Posted by Nyles

We had our issues with sexual assaults and harassment back in the 90s, but I think if you treat women like any other soldier sooner or later people will start to see them as one.

There have been some dark and disturbing reports from the sandbox in the last ten years... You just gotta be willing to look at them. Those incidents, though technically rare, make me sick. And Rape by fellow soldiers in the field (again rare) is still an abomination in my eyes, but those incidents are still happening.

[MT2008]

Originally Posted by MoviePropMaster2008

There have been some dark and disturbing reports from the sandbox in the last ten years... You just gotta be willing to look at them. Those incidents, though technically rare, make me sick. And Rape by fellow soldiers in the field (again rare) is still an abomination in my eyes, but those incidents are still happening.

I have a female friend who used to work with me and then later went to work at the Pentagon. While she was there, she became interested in joining the Army as an officer. She went as far as putting together her entire OCS application package (which took the better part of six months) and getting ready to go before the board. And then her office got a new analyst who was former AF. That girl told my friend countless stories about getting marriage proposals from enlisted guys while she was deployed, and other female friends who had to fight off sexual advances. Needless to say, my friend lost her enthusiasm about joining the Army pretty quickly.

Originally Posted by SPEMack618

And one day, she got shot down in the middle of a firefight. And we went ballistic. Everybody and his battle buddy was wanting to ditch their sector, their overwatch position, whatever and go tear assing across an open field, liberally crossed with heavy Dishka fire, and pull her out of her Kiowa.

No way in hell we'd have behaved that way had it been a dude chopper jock.

Interesting story. I recall hearing similar anecdotes while the pundits were debating Panetta's repeal of the ban on women serving in combat roles. I also remember k9870 mentioning this in another IMFDB forum topic. My reaction: Even if we buy that men have a natural instinct to defend women (plausible), can they be trained to suppress it? Being in the military requires people to suppress many natural instincts (namely, self-preservation) - why not this one?

Personally, I don't have a problem with the idea of women serving in combat roles, so long as DoD recognizes the inherent challenges involved and implements training to mitigate them.

[SPEMack618]

Originally Posted by MT2008

Even if we buy that men have a natural instinct to defend women (plausible), can they be trained to suppress it? Being in the military requires people to suppress many natural instincts (namely, self-preservation) - why not this one?

See, here is where I disagree.

I'm of the mindset of Colonel Cooper, that man, instinctively, likes to fight. He wants to prove that he is superior. He wants to dominate. He wants to come out on top. He wants to beat other men who are well armed, well led, and well motivated. That's his natural instinct. The Army merely digs it out from the politically correct brainwashing he underwent through years of public schooling.

And I may be way, way off base. I'm simply speaking for myself and my squad of Georgia Army National Guardsman. Hell, we might have liked to fight because we were too dumb to know better.

And I feel that the natural instinct to protect women is as deeply ingrained as the instinct to fight.

I'm not anti-women in the military, I'm anti-women in combat MOSs.

[MT2008]

Originally Posted by SPEMack618

See, here is where I disagree.

I'm of the mindset of Colonel Cooper, that man, instinctively, likes to fight. He wants to prove that he is superior. He wants to dominate. He wants to come out on top. He wants to beat other men who are well armed, well led, and well motivated. That's his natural instinct. The Army merely digs it out from the politically correct brainwashing he underwent through years of public schooling.

And I may be way, way off base. I'm simply speaking for myself and my squad of Georgia Army National Guardsman. Hell, we might have liked to fight because we were too dumb to know better.

And I feel that the natural instinct to protect women is as deeply ingrained as the instinct to fight.

I'm not anti-women in the military, I'm anti-women in combat MOSs.

First, to make sure we are clear on where I am coming from, you have the right to express your opinion without being accused of bigotry. Your views are based upon legitimate concerns.

I haven't served, so I admit that I don't have any anecdotes like yours. But I did spend enough years rowing when I was in college to know that there are plenty of women who have the instinct to dominate and come out on top. The kinds of women who I saw on the team are, I would think, exactly the kinds of women who would be fine in combat arms jobs (perhaps they wouldn't excel, but they could at least hold their own). If they can carry a Vespoli shell, they can ruck.

I wish k9870 were still here - he was at the U.S. Coast Guard Academy, right? I always found it weird that k9870 was opposed to women in combat, given what I know about his school's oarswomen. When I was in college, I remember CGA had women's varsity crews which were about as fast as my school's men's varsity crews. (Also, during my sophomore year, their freshmen men's boat beat our second varsity boat - which was my boat.) If I were a combat arms officer, I would have taken a platoon of those ladies over the guys from my own boat.

In the end, though, I believe that women in combat should only get the green light provided that there is good, hard data to suggest that this is a good idea (as opposed to progress for the sake of progress). I would never get behind a social engineering program that is not supported by empirical evidence. And I am concerned that Panetta jumped the gun on removing the barriers to women in combat, before sufficient evidence was presented.

But...I suspect that this is still a (rare) case where the forces of liberalism and political correctness are actually right, even if it is for the wrong reasons.

[Jcordell]

UPDATE ELEVEN YEARS LATER: New York Post dated Sept 8, 2015, stated that there are only 214 six-shot .38 revolver carrying officers left on a force of about 35,000.

[funkychinaman]

Originally Posted by Jcordell

UPDATE ELEVEN YEARS LATER: New York Post dated Sept 8, 2015, stated that there are only 214 six-shot .38 revolver carrying officers left on a force of about 35,000.

I don't remember if I was around when you first posted the article, but this jumped out at me:

""It's put me through 20 years, and I'm still alive," said Officer Gregg Melita, 41, who not only carries a Ruger Police Service revolver, but the old "dump pouches," two leather carriers that hold loose cartridges. "This is when guns were guns, and cops were cops," he said. "The new guys don't even know what dump pouches are. They go, 'Hey, what's that hold?' " He chuckled. "'Bullets, kid.'""

I get the appeal of revolvers, I like them myself, but come on, at least use a damn speedloader.

And a DS on an ankle holster? That seems a bit on the heavy side.

[Jcordell]

Originally Posted by funkychinaman

I don't remember if I was around when you first posted the article, but this jumped out at me:

""It's put me through 20 years, and I'm still alive," said Officer Gregg Melita, 41, who not only carries a Ruger Police Service revolver, but the old "dump pouches," two leather carriers that hold loose cartridges. "This is when guns were guns, and cops were cops," he said. "The new guys don't even know what dump pouches are. They go, 'Hey, what's that hold?' " He chuckled. "'Bullets, kid.'""

I get the appeal of revolvers, I like them myself, but come on, at least use a damn speedloader.

And a DS on an ankle holster? That seems a bit on the heavy side.

Back in my detective days (2003-2006) I carried my DS in an ankle holster. Mainly because I wanted to try it. I lasted a month at the longest. Even though the DS cylinder is just .1 inch larger (2015 Gun Digest, page 202) than the five shot cylinder of my Model 49 bodyguard that little bit made for a cylinder that really pressed against my ankle (I used a Galco ankle band) after a few hours and the extra three ounces really made a difference after five or six hours. I was surprised. I returned to my Model 49 after that month. I still own both revolvers, but the Bodyguard gets carried. the DS is a safe queen.

I'm with you. I like revolvers and now own fourteen. No fifteen revolvers. Love the old handguns, but use a speed loader if you're carrying a revolver in the real world.

My herd as of 08/23/15. Sorry for the picture quality.

going to a gun auction tomorrow. Hope to get either a S&W Model 65 3", Colt Model 1917 (45acp) or a S&W Model 520. Smith made 3,000 of the 520 for the New York State Police in 1980 only to have the NYSP cancel at the last minute. It's just the Model 28 Highway Patrolman only with fixed sights instead of adjustable, but it's rare and would make a great addition to my collection. If I get any of those three you know I'll be posting. Wish me luck.