Theoretical: The SOCOM M4A1 post-adoption of the FN AC

[Chitoryu12]

Originally Posted by SPEMack618

In OSUT, the M-16A2s we trained with were simply referred to as "gas operated".

If I were Chief of Staff for the day, I wouldn't concentrate so much on a new carbine, but on a more effective round to use in it.

Even then, 5.56mm isn't exactly some pathetic whelp of a round that can barely even punch a hole through a Middle Eastern insurgent. The round's been used for ages and on many different targets by people in many countries for many years; the complaints have only recently started to come out in force. The problem doesn't seem to be with the 5.56x45mm cartridge itself, but rather the changes made when switching to the M16A2 standard.

Then again, I personally find the ban on expanding bullets in warfare to be inherently stupid. Police and hunters use it to ensure a quicker stopping and/or death of the target, so it would probably be MORE humane to use it against other people that you're trying to kill. It seems less about being "humane" and more about trying to make wounds look cleaner and help sanitize the concept of war.

[Excalibur]

Why did you think that same convention also banned serrated knives

[Spartan198]

Originally Posted by Excalibur

Why did you think that same convention also banned serrated knives

Does anyone even abide by that one? I know both the M9 and OKC-3S bayonets used by the Army and Marines have partial serrations. The M11 EOD knife, which uses the same blade design as the M9, obviously would have those serrations, too.

[funkychinaman]

Originally Posted by Spartan198

Does anyone even abide by that one? I know both the M9 and OKC-3S bayonets used by the Army and Marines have partial serrations. The M11 EOD knife, which uses the same blade design as the M9, obviously would have those serrations, too.

AK bayonets have a saw blade as well. I don't know if that was ever an actual rule, more of a courtesy.

[commando552]

I think the origin of this is the saw backed bayonets carried by German pioneers in WW1. Apparently there were stories of them causing such ghastly wounds that if a soldier was captured with one he was tortured and executed, so the German Army stopped issuing them. The Hague convention only covers weapons which are "calculated to cause unnecessary suffering", and this is generally not the intent with a serrated are sawback knife. The serrations are generally there for utility purposes due to bayonets now being more of a tool and are not designed to cause suffering, so they are allowed.

[funkychinaman]

So hollow points were specifically banned by Declaration II of the Hague Convention of 1899:

The Contracting Parties agree to abstain from the use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core, or is pierced with incisions.

The present Declaration is only binding for the Contracting Powers in the case of a war between two or more of them.

It shall cease to be binding from the time when, in a war between the Contracting Parties, one of the belligerents is joined by a non-Contracting Power.

Interestingly, "the use of projectiles the object of which is the diffusion of asphyxiating or deleterious gases" was also banned at the same convention. (Declaration III.) This obviously didn't stick, but it could be the reason why the Germans initially only released chemical weapons from gas cylinders. It wasn't until later that both sides started filling projectiles with the stuff.

[funkychinaman]

Originally Posted by commando552

I think the origin of this is the saw backed bayonets carried by German pioneers in WW1. Apparently there were stories of them causing such ghastly wounds that if a soldier was captured with one he was tortured and executed, so the German Army stopped issuing them. The Hague convention only covers weapons which are "calculated to cause unnecessary suffering", and this is generally not the intent with a serrated are sawback knife. The serrations are generally there for utility purposes due to bayonets now being more of a tool and are not designed to cause suffering, so they are allowed.

Section II, Chapter I, Article 23 of "Laws and Customs of War on Land" prohibits using "arms, projectiles, or material of a nature to cause superfluous injury"

[SPEMack618]

I genuinely understand the purpose of the Hague and Geneve conventions, in addition to the theory behind ball ammo. And I think it applies neatly to a total war scenario against a similar nation. (Think Allies against Germany)

However, when the enemy comes from an entirely different culture, there is no strategic industry for Bomber Commander and the 8th Air Force to plaster into oblivion, and oh yeah, the bad guys leave thier wounded behind for us to deal with, the ban on hollow points seems a bit...antiquated.