Why people call Mags clips?

[AdAstra2009]

Originally Posted by Evil Tim

Depends, does it really matter if someone calls a TEC-9 a machine gun or an M1 Garand an assault rifle?

Not really.
Though the M1 Garand's a bit of a stretch and TEC-9s can be machine guns..
All I'm saying is clip is now modern vernacular for magazine.

Perception is reality

[Yournamehere]

Originally Posted by AdAstra2009

Not really.
Though the M1 Garand's a bit of a stretch and TEC-9s can be machine guns..
All I'm saying is clip is now modern vernacular for magazine.

Perception is reality

The thing is, by that logic, a TEC-9 is a machine gun and an M1 Garand is an assault rifle, depending on someones definition or "perception" of the terms or weapons. What I'm saying is that in purely definitional terms, clips and magazines are different devices. Connotatively they are the same, but by definition (at least as I know them) they are not, just as those weapons are connotatively something to someone when they aren't to someone else.

Now without getting too deep into it and too technical, I understand appreciating that thee two terms are colloquially interchanged today, but just the same, it should be respected and understood that in a purely technical sense, they are different.

[MoviePropMaster2008]

Originally Posted by Yournamehere

The thing is, by that logic, a TEC-9 is a machine gun and an M1 Garand is an assault rifle, depending on someones definition or "perception" of the terms or weapons.

uh what? TEC-9 is NOT a machine gun. The full auto version CAN be called a submachine gun since it fires a pistol cartridge, but NOT a machine gun. A Machine gun fires rifle cartridges and higher (though when it's a lot higher it's either a HEAVY machine gun or an auto cannon). One could call it a machine pistol since it was NOT originally designed to be fire with a shoulder stock (like an Uzi, MP5, MP40, etc).

Here is my own rule of thumb list:

1) Machine pistol - fires pistol cartridge - (a full auto version of a handgun aka Glock 18 or Beretta 93R) or a full auto weapon designed to be fired either via one hand or without a buttstock (Tec-9, Micro Uzi (the version with no stock), Mauser 712, etc) For the purists, the stock for the Mauser 712 was also the stock for the non full auto Mauser

2) Submachine gun (any select/full auto weapon) that fires a pistol cartridge and was originally or generally is offered with a folding or telescoping stock. Examples: Uzi, Madsen M50, MP40, MP18, M1928 Thompson, etc.

3) Carbine (any shortened and lightened version of a full sized assault or battle rifle for specialty usage) like an XM-177E1 or a dedicated semi auto rifle like an M1 Carbine or short specialty manually operated rifle like a cavalry carbine (Carcano Cavalry Carbine M91/38, etc.)

4) Assault Rifle - Any select fire rifle that fires an intermediate cartridge (between a pistol and a full sized rifle cartridge)

5) Main Battle Rifle - Any infantry rifle that fires a full rifle cartridge. Some argue that .308 is an intermediate cartridge, but then people argue whether or not the G3 or FN FAL are assault rifles or MBRs. Depends on what you think a full sized rifle cartridge is. Either way, the M1 garand is a MBR as well as any Bolt action rifle that was fielded.

6) Squad automatic weapon/Light Machine Gun - a fire support Machine gun that fires the same intermediate cartridge as the rest of the infantry squad. (M249, RPK, RPD)

7) General Purpose Machine gun - a belt fed machine gun that fires a round that is not used by the rest of the squad (M60, M240, PKM )

8) Machine gun - belt fed machine gun (more vintage term) a crew served weapon that fires the same FULL SIZED rifle round as the rest of the squad (M1919, M1917, M1908 Maxim, .303 Vickers, MG42, etc)

9) Heavy Machine gun - any sort of machine gun that fires a round that is normally too large to be carried by any other squad infantry member, the most common example is the .50 BMG, even though in recent years we have seen marksmen using the Barrett 50 cal rifles in combat. (M2HB, M3, DShK, _

10) Auto cannon - 25mm Bushmaster, 40mm Bofors, etc.

[Yournamehere]

Originally Posted by MoviePropMaster2008

Here is my own rule of thumb list:

With all due respect, that's my point, the item in question is whatever the person or persons define it as. In this case, these guys are allowing common vernacular by ignorant or uninformed people (again, with all due respect) to define the term for them, when in fact there are true technical definitions or at the very least an opposing common vernacular used by more educated people like yourself or other gun enthusiasts. The two answers as to what something is are what it is according to actual definition of terms (which can be wide ranged and very complicated) or what groupthink among people allow it to be (which is not always accurate), and that's the way it is.

[AdAstra2009]

Well a TEC-9 can be a machine-gun by the basic dictionary or the US legal meaning of a firearm shooting more than one bullet with a pull of the trigger.

Also the 'perception' of mags being clips and so on is reality because it is very prolific. Not so much "tec-9 machinegun, m1 garand assault rifle". If I picked a random individual on the street he or she would likely not even know what a tec 9 or a m1 garand is. Also if said person knew of these firearms by name, more likely than not they would know that said firearm is not an mg or assault rifle.

[Yournamehere]

Originally Posted by AdAstra2009

Well a TEC-9 can be a machine-gun by the basic dictionary or the US legal meaning of a firearm shooting more than one bullet with a pull of the trigger.

Also the 'perception' of mags being clips and so on is reality because it is very prolific. Not so much "tec-9 machinegun, m1 garand assault rifle". If I picked a random individual on the street he or she would likely not even know what a tec 9 or a m1 garand is. Also if said person knew of these firearms by name, more likely than not they would know that said firearm is not an mg or assault rifle.

That's not exactly quantifiable.

[Evil Tim]

Originally Posted by AdAstra2009

All I'm saying is clip is now modern vernacular for magazine.

Well, sure, but the actual meaning of the words doesn't match common usage. That's not really uncommon (for example, it's really common to call a weapon system like Phalanx a "turret" when it's correctly called an "installation" since it doesn't cross the armour of the thing it's mounted on) and in conversation as long as the person you're talking to understands what you mean it doesn't matter, but it's still not correct.

Originally Posted by MT2008

Although I always use the term "magazine" myself, I think it's way too OCD and Aspergian to constantly correct others who use the wrong term.

While I'd agree obsessing over it isn't good and people go overboard, it's the same question as if someone you know is trying to use deodorant to cover that they haven't washed (and failing). Sure, they might take offence if you tell them, or they might honestly not know it isn't working and be glad you saved them embarassing themselves. And in the end it isn't your fault for pointing it out unless you're a dick about doing so.

Originally Posted by MT2008

Apparently, this was acceptable at the time, before the Mazryonhs of the world gained the ability to proselytize over the Internet.

Well, it's more that someone who uses a weapon for a living doesn't really have to care too much about what the correct terms are for the various bits of it. For, say, the guy at the depot trying to work out if the guys on the front want thirty cases of preloaded mags or thirty cases of stripper clips, then it's a bit more of an issue. (Let's not even get into things like what ground crews think of pilots' knowledge of their aircraft).

Originally Posted by AdAstra2009

Well a TEC-9 can be a machine-gun by the basic dictionary or the US legal meaning of a firearm shooting more than one bullet with a pull of the trigger.

Well yeah, but by the US legal meaning a sear can be a machine gun, even though a sear isn't a gun at all.

[MoviePropMaster2008]

Originally Posted by Evil Tim

Well yeah, but by the US legal meaning a sear can be a machine gun, even though a sear isn't a gun at all.

Of a block of metal with a S/N stamped on it that has a Tax stamp associated with it. Remember when the ATF tried to declare a 'shoelace' when tied to the trigger of a weapon whose vibration would initiate another firing pin actuation, to be a machine gun. Yes, a SHOELACE would be a machine gun if attached to a semiauto rifle. Either way that is WHY no historian or scholar would use the Lawyer's definition of a machine gun.

According to government lawyers, if you spill a bunch of water on your own property and don't drain it in less than 30 days, that property magically becomes a 'wetland' and is protected by the EPA. Doesn't matter that NO environmental scientist or botanist or whatever would EVER even look at that land as a 'wetland'.

Acceding to Lawyer speak in this realm means giving in to 'crazy town' definitions.

[AdAstra2009]

Originally Posted by Evil Tim

Well, it's more that someone who uses a weapon for a living doesn't really have to care too much about what the correct terms are for the various bits of it. For, say, the guy at the depot trying to work out if the guys on the front want thirty cases of preloaded mags or thirty cases of stripper clips, then it's a bit more of an issue. (Let's not even get into things like what ground crews think of pilots' knowledge of their aircraft).

Never heard of preloaded mags coming straight from the depot.

I'm playing devil's advocate and yeah it's incorrect practice to call a mag a clip.
I just think it's obnoxious to snap on someone for something small like that.

[Evil Tim]

Originally Posted by MoviePropMaster2008

Remember when the ATF tried to declare a 'shoelace' when tied to the trigger of a weapon whose vibration would initiate another firing pin actuation, to be a machine gun. Yes, a SHOELACE would be a machine gun if attached to a semiauto rifle.

As I recall, wasn't the reason that failed because a shoelace would be a machine gun even if it wasn't attached to the rifle? I guess they were hoping that by now America would be free of everything but grandfathered shoelaces and they could get on to tackling the threat of velcro.

Originally Posted by AdAstra2009

Never heard of preloaded mags coming straight from the depot.

I thought I'd heard of it being done, though I can see why you wouldn't, it's just asking for springs to fail on you. Still, just empty mags would be the same problem if you wind up with 30 cans of them when you wanted 30 cans of bullets.

Originally Posted by AdAstra2009

I'm playing devil's advocate and yeah it's incorrect practice to call a mag a clip.
I just think it's obnoxious to snap on someone for something small like that.

Well, depends on usage, really. If you discuss things at a technical level a lot you need the terms to mean different things since otherwise it's rather hard to explain, say, what the difference is between a Mauser C96 and an M712 (one uses a 10-round clip and the other uses...a 10-round clip? A 10-round detachable clip? But, um, isn't the first one's clip...argh). Obviously the "perception" argument doesn't apply to the things themselves; if you put a C96 clip and a Schnellfeuer box magazine on the table side by side, no matter who looks at them it will be clear they are two different things. The trouble is the common usage leaves no word to describe one but not the other.

To give the example I should have given to begin with, "chaingun" is a good example of a term almonst universally used incorrectly. You ask your average man on the street what a chaingun is and you'll almost certainly have a gatling gun described to you. Which is fine until you're trying to explain what kind of gun a Bradley has and realise the actual term for it doesn't mean what it's supposed to anymore.