G-Men weapons

[Excalibur]

My logic is that if it existed at that time period, and if it is possible to get it, it should be in it.

[Mandolin]

On second thought, how about a suppressed Sten for the NKVD? Could the FBI get a Johnson M1941 LMG or are those too rare? The Winchester 1912 shotgun is also a possablility. How about a second sheriff's deputy who either: 1. is a WW2 vet with an M-1 Garand or M1A1 carbine 2. is a motorcyle officer and carries a .38 Super 1911 converted to a machine pistol(like in Public Enemies) due to his being a long ways from backup. The 1911 is carried in a modified shoulder holster and he also has a small revolver and a shotgun/carbine.

I ignored all Russian machineguns in my original post, as they use too much hard-to find ammo. The SVT-40, M91/38, PPSh41/PPS-43 all use Russian ammunition, but either don't use much (the rifles) or the ammo is small and light(the SMGs).

As Yournamehere pointed out the Winchester '07 may be out of FBI service, so you could replace it with M1 Carbines. As for the M1928A1 and BAR, there isn't a replacement, so keep them. The Ithaca 37 came out in 1937, so it's fine. According the the Smith and Wesson page on th main site, the Model 10/15/27 are the only revolvers in .38 or bigger in the time period.

[SPEMack618]

The Heavy Duty, in .38/44 was out at the time. And I think my local Sheriff will probably pack one of those. And he will probably have an Ithaca 37, but the Featherweight Field Gun.

I do like the idea of the Model 12 being used in lieu of the Model '97, the FBI guys will have those.

I think I'm going to relegate the Winchester '07 to the State Police, who will also carry Colt Police Positives.

Atleast one of the FBI Agents will cary a Super .38, the aforementioned gun guy. He will also probably carry the BAR. The other four Agents will have a mix of Thompsons and Model 12s, all carrying Government Models in .45 ACP with Colt Dick Specials liberally thrown around as BUGs.


Well, being this is before the CGA of '68 I think I'm going to have the NKVD order a variety of stuff through mail order. Any ideas?

And for pistols, either TT-33s or PPKs, which they could bring over there with them under thier coats.

[Mandolin]

How many NKVD?

[SPEMack618]

Not sure yet. About six or so...maybe eight?

[Mandolin]

Well, being Russian, I'm seeing a mix of SMGs and bolt guns. So, a couple M1928A1/M1 Thompsons, various civilian bolt-guns, and possably a light machine gun, like a BAR or Lewis. OTOH, they might have experiance with and prefer M1 carbines, suppressed Sten guns, MP40s, and other Lend-Lease or captured weapons.

[Yournamehere]

Originally Posted by Excalibur

My logic is that if it existed at that time period, and if it is possible to get it, it should be in it.

The problem is those are two very broad qualifications. For example, today, the Remington 1911R1 exists, and is for sale on the market. Does that mean your local police officer has one? No, I highly doubt it. For one it's not a particularly fascinating gun as was the case of a lot of the guns of the 50's or any era, nor is it probably an approved gun for many agencies, again, something to consider in the era.

As for revolvers again, S&W didn't begin numbering their models until the mid 1950's so technically, none of those models even existed. They had the named counterparts of the day (M&P for the Model 10, K38 "Combat Masterpiece" for the Model 15, and Registered Magnum for the Model 27), but they were not referred to by model number yet. I don't know how common .38/44 was at the time, but it's probably better to err on the safe side and just give him a .38. I think a lot of people hate doing that because .38s reputation today is this weak and wimpy cartridge, but the thing is it's completely in it's element any time before the last 30 years, and for that time it was the caliber of choice for many and carried by just about everyone. I'd also say scratch the Police Positive and go for the more modern Official Police, which fits the date better and is also chambered in .38 Special.

I think some of these ideas are way too into prohibition era and blatantly ripping off prohibition era films, namely Public Enemies. Drum Thompsons and BARs were more of that era than post World War II. As most of us know the final rendition of the Thompson was the M1A1, which I would recommend be the Thompson of choice, unless you find an issued Thompson which better fits the bill. The BAR, while at this time is unmatched in firepower capability, is a very heavy weapon, and I don't believe it was the issue weapon of any police force of the time, nor do I see it filling that role. At the very least it should be an M1 Garand in place of that, if not a simple .30-06 bolt gun. Not sure about M1 Carbines either. Again, this is the FBI in the 1950's, not World War II, so the M1 Carbine may not be an issue/appropriate gun, nor is it a particularly wonderful choice given other weapons you could pick.

Lastly, I understand how it could seem a bit boring to give characters somewhat "generic" weapons and calibers, but on the other end of the spectrum, it's far too blatant and pretentious to give them something way too particular or extravagant. It seems really contrived, as if you're trying to tell your reader "hey, I know a lot about guns" when it probably ends up saying "hey, I tried to place some obscure items in here to make it seem like I know a lot". The machine pistol is a great example of this on both fronts. On one end, it is ridiculously particular, so particular in fact that the only place in history where one was ever noted was in John Dillinger's gang, and that's it. Putting it in one's own writing is an obvious borrowing of the concept from that gun, because that's the only one out there to inspire one to give it to a character. On the other hand, it has been brought into the mainstream know having been used in Public Enemies, so everyone who has seen that film knows about the once fascinatingly obscure machine pistol in .38 Super. This is what puts the final nail in the coffin housing the ability to pay homage to that weapon. It's way too specific, everyone knows about it, and frankly it's not a very effective weapon anyway, so the edginess and cleverness in placing it in the story is completely gone. It's better to give him a generic .38 or .45 that you know an FBI man would have than to force a particular gun on a character, it just makes more sense that way.

[Mandolin]

Well, post-WW2 there's not much for new weapons since Prohibition, so I don't see the problem with the M1 Carbine. There isn't anything other than Thompsons and BARs to issue, and I can't see why they'd adopt the M1A1 model Thompsons, it was a simplified military adaptation that offers no real benefit over the M1928A1. Frankly, there's no new weapons technology for the FBI in the 1950s, with the possible exeption of the M1 Carbine and M3 Grease Gun, so weaponry would most likely be unchanged from the 1930s to at least 1960. Until the Uzi, MP5, and M16 start showing up, FBI and law-enforcement weaponry is going to be stuck in stasis from the Prohibition era.

The BAR is heavy, but if you want real firepower, that's what's availible and the Garand is never going to replace it. While not normally used, it's heavy firepower will see it getting dragged out of the gunsafe to catch the hit squad. Asside form the machine pistol, none of the ideas are ripping off movies, they're simply stuck with the same weapons as that era

[SPEMack618]

I meant to say Offical Police, I was confused there.

As for the Heavy Duty, S&W manufactured upwards of 40,000 of them. Surely, a Southern sheriff who is buying his own gear would have aquired one.

And that is my idea with the BAR, that the hit squad wacked a British diplomat with enough firepower to overwhelm his security detail, that necessitates breaking the BAR out of the arms locker.

Now, not sure how much fact behind the series as the whole, but the specific guy talking about it looked credible as hell, stated the the Thompson, in a M-1928 configuration wasn't removed from service with the FBI until the '70s. Further more, my thinking with that version is the Agent using it will have had experience with it before, either during Prohibition or WWII, and will something along the lines of:
"Now, the drums are crap to carry, but having 50 rounds to begin a gun fight ain't all that bad of a proposition."

Further more, having read several articles on the matter, I'm inclined to belief that the Super .38 was rather popular in the '30s, especially with firearms guys. Hell, it's flat shooting, hard hitting, runs in the Government Model platform, and you carry one more in the mag. I could see the gun guy carrying a Super .38

[Yournamehere]

Being popular directly after it's inception doesn't necessarily make it popular 20 years later. Even so, a .45 ACP 1911 will do everything a .38 Super 1911 will do in a combat role. The .38 Super on paper has superior ballistics, but these kinds of differences are really only noticed in match environments. Moreover, the agents will have an abundance of .45 ACP on them since they will have Thompsons, and the ammo is easier to get as it is the common American caliber of the day, as opposed to .38 Super which has probably declined in popularity after the war. Personally, when I think .38 Super, I think of Dillingers machine pistol, and ISPC race guns where the shooters need every minute ballistic edge they can get. I don't consider the caliber superior to .45 as a combat cartridge given all the factors I've mentioned. Still, if you really think it'd aid to characterization to give a character a .38 Super 1911, do so. I think I've argued how it logistically doesn't make as much sense as a standard .45 Government Model though.

If you have a credible source that says Feds used M1928s (not A1s) at the time, then give them those. It was an issue weapon, and is the most iconic of the Thompson models on top of that.

The BAR and the .38-44 seem fine to me though given what you've said.