no accurate FPS games

[jdun]

Base on the military starting another future weapon program this coming November. Bushmaster is delaying production of the ACR because they want to know what is the requirements for the new completion.

If the SCAR is going to be adopted in the US military then why start another program? Here the thing about the military, even if your product past the testing it does not means that it will be adopted.

In order for a future rifle to replace the AR it needs to suppress the AR15 in every categories. That's not going to happen because all these weapons are repackage from old design that was developed 50+ years ago. The difference is new name and new material but the same soul.

[k9870]

Special forces like the SCAR last time I saw.

And the AR is not as dominant as you make it seem, the big reason is politicians not wanting to dish out money on guns. We could get better weapons, and even small improvements are good. We could replace all U.S. Service rifles for the cost of one stealth bomber. Why not?

Ars jsut don't do it for me. And minis cost about half of what an AR costs. I dont know where your seeing 1200 dollar mini 14s. And ever try the NRA model with 16 inch barrel? 2-3 inch 100 yard groups. Not a military rifle, but as a utility gun I like it. And they have a target model, guess what, MOA

The reason for high caps is bill ruger died and now we dont need to deal with his BS and the new ruger folks are making good decisions.

[jdun]

I don't think you understand how the AR15 works. It is the best weapon in the world. That's why most Western Special Force use it.

If the AR15 was bad then why it is the number one weapon of choice for contractors in Iraq and Afghanistan. Would these independent contractors that can use any weapon chose a weapon that most game kiddie think it is bad. Why would they risk their lives carrying a bad weapon? Because the AR15 isn't a bad weapon, in fact it is the best platform in the market.

Every time I read that the AR15 is unreliable and whatever, the first thing that comes to my mind is game kiddie.

Every time I read that this XXX weapon is going to be replace the AR15, the first thing that comes to my mind is game kiddie.

Show me pictures or videos where US Special Force use the SCAR in combat. The SCAR is for sell to civilians. If the SCAR is being use by the US military you would expect civilians sells would not be on the top of the list. There will be no civilians version for years just like there wasn't when the AR15 first came out.

You can get an AR15 for the same price as a Ruger mini 14. It's not my opinion it a fact. A typical AR runs around $800. The price is higher right now because of high demand and low supplies. AR15 manufactures can't keep up with demand even when the factories are running 20 hour shift. There is around a 6 months waiting period.

http://gunbroker.com/Auction/SearchResults.asp

[Gunmaster45]

I'd rather have an AR-15 than my dad's Ruger Ranch Rifle, but with a pre-ban 40 round magazine, accuracy isn't an issue a long range. But I've shot targets with the newer stainless steel Ruger Mini-14, and I fired 20 rounds as fast as I could fire on a target at 40 yards and got them all within about 2", which is pretty good.

But I feel very comfortable with the AR-15 platform, I think it is very ergonomic and easy to use, and is very accurate. While I wouldn't call it the best rifle in the world, it is a proven weapon that many prefer.

Now if .223/5.56 wasn't so god damned loud! I'm amazed anyone who's ever used one in combat can still here. You never feel compelled to plink with an AR, unless you want people a few miles away to know.

[k9870]

The AR-15 is not the greatest wepon in the world, it's jsut used by the military, looks cool and gets the job done. Any attempts to surpass it are shut down by the pro-ar crowd and everyone with one believes it to be the ultimate gun in its class. Everyone gets biased to their guns. Look at pistols. Some say glock, some say 1911, neither will admit anything is better.

[MT2008]

Originally Posted by k9870

The AR-15 is not the greatest wepon in the world, it's jsut used by the military, looks cool and gets the job done. Any attempts to surpass it are shut down by the pro-ar crowd and everyone with one believes it to be the ultimate gun in its class. Everyone gets biased to their guns. Look at pistols. Some say glock, some say 1911, neither will admit anything is better.

But I do think Jdun has raised a good point...if the AR-15 is so overrated, why is that anyone who has a choice in what they use (meaning SF personnel) prefer them? Don't you think it's kind of odd that the Aussies adopted the Steyr AUG, for instance, but their SF all use M4s?

[Phoenixent]

Originally Posted by MT2008

But I do think Jdun has raised a good point...if the AR-15 is so overrated, why is that anyone who has a choice in what they use (meaning SF personnel) prefer them? Don't you think it's kind of odd that the Aussies adopted the Steyr AUG, for instance, but their SF all use M4s?

Not saying it's a bad system like all thing it has flaws but the weapon works for the right operation. I have been working on the AR15/M16 system for 30 years and worked the bugs out to make them work fine. Then someone comes and changes it like the size of the gas port for cyclic rate or chamber dimension to get more accuracy out it. Then those have to be corrected because it done not work correctly with those changes. HK took several years to build the 416 changing everything when Taiwan had the T65 in the 1970's which is a M16 with a piston gas system ala AR180.

[jdun]

Originally Posted by k9870

The AR-15 is not the greatest wepon in the world, it's jsut used by the military, looks cool and gets the job done. Any attempts to surpass it are shut down by the pro-ar crowd and everyone with one believes it to be the ultimate gun in its class. Everyone gets biased to their guns. Look at pistols. Some say glock, some say 1911, neither will admit anything is better.

All firearms are recycled package from old designs. There really nothing new other then the material (cheap plastic) that is being used and the look of the new platform.

The AR15 is the best rifle in the world. It's not going to change anytime soon because firearms mechanical limitation is near or at it limit.

I did not say the SCAR-L/MK16 Mod 0 was being adopted by the US Military. I said The SCAR system is coming on line right now for Special Ops and would be no problem to go system wide with it. FN has produced over 100,000 SCAR-L/MK16 Mod 0 Rifles to date for USSOCOM. The are competing for the Marine Corp IAR program at this time. So if this new ACR program coming up what weapons are going to compete and how do you know that the SCAR is not one of them? Also I would not count on Bushmaster to much they still have a big QA problem as the M4 in Orange County Sheriff Dept that came from Bushmaster are junk.

FN production of the SCAR started around six months ago and I really doubt they produced 100,000 SCAR rifles for SOCOM. The entire US Special Force is less then 15k IIRC. 100,000 is about half the size of the Marine Corp. 100,000 is 5 Army divisions.

If you're talking about the IAR program there are three companies that is on the finial list. Colt AR15 IAR rifle, HK416 IAR, and FN SCAR IAR version. The contract stated whoever the Marine choose, the manufacture will provided the rifles and price on the contract.

The ACR is Bushmaster entry to the future weapon program. ACR was designed by Magpul and it was originally called Masada. Bushmaster bought the rights for the Masada and renamed it ACR. Bushmaster delay the production of the rifle in order to figure out the requirements for the future weapon program. The Bushmaster ACR use an AR18 action and is not an AR15. I think HK416 will be in it. I am not sure if FN will reenter the SCAR in new competition. Colt will put their new version of the AR15.

If you want a great AK get one with a milled receiver. Early AR's are Great with the 1 in 14 twist barrel. The A2 you can throw that Marine Corp 800 meter rear sight in the trash. I like the M4 Carbine for a lightweight weapon and the FAL for a Battle Rifle with an 18" Barrel.

The bullet has to weight 45 gr or less in order to stabilize at 1:14 twist. You're better off shooting .22lr at that twist rate on an AR15. The 1:7 twist allows the bullet weight to go over 80 gr. This provides better ballistic and accuracy. A2 rifles are use in long range precision shooting. Competitors using A2 iron sights hit the X mark the size of a CD disk at 600 yards over 60% of their shots.

Glock and 1911 dominate US handguns sells and completions. Glocks and 1911 are use the most in completions because of the triggers. Both are light and has less travel.

[k9870]

The AR15 is the best rifle in the world.

Bold statement there, Id take an FAL, m14 or in 556 even a sig 5xx series first.

[Phoenixent]

Originally Posted by jdun

Base on the military starting another future weapon program this coming November. Bushmaster is delaying production of the ACR because they want to know what is the requirements for the new completion.

If the SCAR is going to be adopted in the US military then why start another program? Here the thing about the military, even if your product past the testing it does not means that it will be adopted.

In order for a future rifle to replace the AR it needs to suppress the AR15 in every categories. That's not going to happen because all these weapons are repackage from old design that was developed 50+ years ago. The difference is new name and new material but the same soul.

I did not say the SCAR-L/MK16 Mod 0 was being adopted by the US Military. I said The SCAR system is coming on line right now for Special Ops and would be no problem to go system wide with it. FN has produced over 100,000 SCAR-L/MK16 Mod 0 Rifles to date for USSOCOM. The are competing for the Marine Corp IAR program at this time. So if this new ACR program coming up what weapons are going to compete and how do you know that the SCAR is not one of them? Also I would not count on Bushmaster to much they still have a big QA problem as the M4 in Orange County Sheriff Dept that came from Bushmaster are junk.