Gun control laws. Reasonable or stupid?

[MoviePropMaster2008]

Originally Posted by MT2008

Maybe not, but that doesn't mean we can ignore these incidents.

Yes we can. They're bad, but they should not have any bearing on what law abiding AMERICANS are doing in our own country.

Originally Posted by MT2008

But I find it annoying that I see pro-gunners who are trying TOO hard to deny that ANY guns used in Mexico come from the U.S. I see weapons being recovered in Mexico that clearly could not have come from anywhere besides a U.S. FFL - like the PS90 carbines, or AR-15s with "post-ban" features. The "90%" figure is an obvious exaggeration (derived from terrible statistical practices), but that doesn't mean there aren't a lot of guns coming from the U.S.

Or they could be any of the number of privately own firearms that have been stolen and spirited into the black market. Again, I must call BS on that one. The argument that law abiding gun owners and American gun stores are in any way meaningful way responsible for the criminal acts of the Cartel thugs (who BTW, still prefer their military weapons) is an erroneous theory and should never be given ANY traction whatsoever.

Originally Posted by MT2008

you guys can probably weather the storm if (God forbid) anything happens to the rest of us.

Nope, they bankrupt us by making us 'exempt' but we will be forced to pay thousands of dollars YEARLY for "special permits" to continue to do what we were doing for nothing back in the day. Also tell that to ALL the businesses that won't do business with California EVEN THOUGH Armorers are exempt by law. They don't care. With California being so business unfriendly and so many run away productions, weathering the storm from a legal standpoint is pretty much pointless when they financially make it impossible. Again, it is unfortunate by I see a few of my friends in the biz who are happy that so many of their 'competition' is leaving the field. I think that's dangerous. Onerous regulations have a way of staying around forever. But then I'm biased for reasons you all know

[Spartan198]

The problem with modern society is that the crazy people make the sane people look crazy, too. That problem extends to gun control as well. You've got crackpots like Randy Weaver and militant extremist group like Hutaree that all clearly believe in the Second Amendment but take it to the extremes by stockpiling full-auto belt-fed machine guns, anti-tank weapons, explosives, and so on.

You've got nutcases who believe that any form of centralized government is a direct resurrection of the Third Reich, that everything in the world from a war overseas to spilling their milk in the mornings is some New World Order conspiracy indicating that the "men in black" are out to get them, and most of these people wouldn't hesitate to reenact Ruby Ridge or Waco at even the slightest provocation and, in all honesty, more than likely don't care who gets caught in the crossfire.

The point I'm getting at here is that those people make mentally-stable, reasonable firearms enthusiasts like us look like radical extremists when we're not and we pay for it with harsher and harsher firearm restrictions.

Sorry if this sounds like an incoherent rant, but it's a thought that just popped into my head.

[MoviePropMaster2008]

Originally Posted by Spartan198

and most of these people wouldn't hesitate to reenact Ruby Ridge or Waco at even the slightest provocation and, in all honesty, more than likely don't care who gets caught in the crossfire.

Do you even KNOW the history of either Ruby Ridge OR Waco? Oh how our youth have been brainwashed by the liberal media.

Ruby Ridge was 100% the fed's fault. The fact that Randy Weaver was exonerated of all charges (except the one of missing his court date etc and deemed time served). Just read the history and ALL of the crap came from the FEDS not Weaver, even though he and his family were bizarre, but the last time I heard, being a weirdo was not a capital crime.

Waco, AGAIN, was a load of crap. Koresh was a weirdo, but it was the ATF who initiated the raid and shot Koresh in the stomach. Again, the government hearings on the matter DID NOT put the FBI and ATF in a good light.

I find it astonishing that anyone lists these events as the fault of the people who were killed, not the overzealous 'law enforcement' types, who many times NEVER IDENTIFIED THEMSELVES before they went in guns blazing. I watched the Senate hearings. I never thought I would be cheering Dianne Feinstein, but she was giving the FBI hell over Ruby Ridge. She really REAMED them for (a) wearing BDUs, face masks, ballistic armor and NO identifying marks (b) not identifying themselves, and shooting at rural country people and then (c) getting mad that people were shooting back.

But I digress. But any gun owner who lists Ruby Ridge or Waco as actions which are the fault of the people (no matter how flawed) versus the Feds, they are sadly lacking in information.

[S&Wshooter]

Originally Posted by MoviePropMaster2008

Do you even KNOW the history of either Ruby Ridge OR Waco? Oh how our youth have been brainwashed by the liberal media.

Ruby Ridge was 100% the fed's fault. The fact that Randy Weaver was exonerated of all charges (except the one of missing his court date etc and deemed time served). Just read the history and ALL of the crap came from the FEDS not Weaver, even though he and his family were bizarre, but the last time I heard, being a weirdo was not a capital crime.

Waco, AGAIN, was a load of crap. Koresh was a weirdo, but it was the ATF who initiated the raid and shot Koresh in the stomach. Again, the government hearings on the matter DID NOT put the FBI and ATF in a good light.

I find it astonishing that anyone lists these events as the fault of the people who were killed, not the overzealous 'law enforcement' types, who many times NEVER IDENTIFIED THEMSELVES before they went in guns blazing. I watched the Senate hearings. I never thought I would be cheering Dianne Feinstein, but she was giving the FBI hell over Ruby Ridge. She really REAMED them for (a) wearing BDUs, face masks, ballistic armor and NO identifying marks (b) not identifying themselves, and shooting at rural country people and then (c) getting mad that people were shooting back.

But I digress. But any gun owner who lists Ruby Ridge or Waco as actions which are the fault of the people (no matter how flawed) versus the Feds, they are sadly lacking in information.

Fuckin' Hell, why do we let the stupidest people in the country run the most dangerous things?

[Krel]

Originally Posted by MoviePropMaster2008

(except the one of missing his court date etc and deemed time served)

The bizarre thing about that, is that the court gave him a different date than was scheduled, so there is no way he could have made that court date.

David.

[Zulu Two Six]

Originally Posted by Krel

The bizarre thing about that.....could have made that court date.

David.

sorry, can't resist:

david,
YOU LITTLE SCUMBAG (with all due respect)
I HAVE YOUR NAME!
I HAVE YOUR ASS!
YOU WILL NOT LAUGH!
YOU WILL NOT CRY!
YOU WILL LEARN BY THE NUMBERS THAT I TEACH YOU!

[MT2008]

Originally Posted by MoviePropMaster2008

Yes we can. They're bad, but they should not have any bearing on what law abiding AMERICANS are doing in our own country.

Maybe not, but at the very least, it's our responsibility to crack down on the people who are selling the weapons to the IRA (which we've mostly done). Furthermore, what's important is that the IRA demonstrated what can be done by terrorists with Barrets.

Originally Posted by MoviePropMaster2008

Or they could be any of the number of privately own firearms that have been stolen and spirited into the black market. Again, I must call BS on that one. The argument that law abiding gun owners and American gun stores are in any way meaningful way responsible for the criminal acts of the Cartel thugs (who BTW, still prefer their military weapons) is an erroneous theory and should never be given ANY traction whatsoever.

Nobody is saying that law-abiding gun owners are "responsible" for cartel violence. I am a law-abiding gun owner, and I am sure as fuck not responsible for the acts of cartel thugs.

That being said, you're kidding yourself if you think that straw purchases made by legal firearms buyers, and illegally transferred to Cartel henchmen, are not taking place. I lived in Texas for a short time (while I was an IMFDB member), and many of the FFLs over there have expressed concern about Mexican cartel gunmen acquiring weapons from them. Everyone knows that some guns being used in Mexico are coming from American FFLs, particularly the Five-Sevens and PS90s. Those guns aren't being stolen at all; they're being purchased new-in-the-box from FFLs by straw buyers, who get paid by the cartels to acquire weapons for them.

I don't think denying this fact (and it is a fact that should be obvious to any American gun owner who looks at recovered Mexican weapons caches) is going to make us look good. You seem to think that pointing this out is somehow tantamount to calling for more gun control laws (which it's not).

Originally Posted by MoviePropMaster2008

Nope, they bankrupt us by making us 'exempt' but we will be forced to pay thousands of dollars YEARLY for "special permits" to continue to do what we were doing for nothing back in the day. Also tell that to ALL the businesses that won't do business with California EVEN THOUGH Armorers are exempt by law. They don't care. With California being so business unfriendly and so many run away productions, weathering the storm from a legal standpoint is pretty much pointless when they financially make it impossible. Again, it is unfortunate by I see a few of my friends in the biz who are happy that so many of their 'competition' is leaving the field. I think that's dangerous. Onerous regulations have a way of staying around forever. But then I'm biased for reasons you all know

Well, again, that's why we have the AEAA now. But I'm pretty surprised that ANYBODY in the biz could see it as a good thing. Given the inter-connectedness of the armorers, it seems ridiculous that anybody could think of this in terms of monopolizing the market.

Originally Posted by Spartan198

You've got nutcases who believe that any form of centralized government is a direct resurrection of the Third Reich, that everything in the world from a war overseas to spilling their milk in the mornings is some New World Order conspiracy indicating that the "men in black" are out to get them...The point I'm getting at here is that those people make mentally-stable, reasonable firearms enthusiasts like us look like radical extremists when we're not and we pay for it with harsher and harsher firearm restrictions.

I'm not even sure you can say that these "nutcases" are all that divorced from the mainstream. The idea that bigger government is always part of some Marxist conspiracy runs pretty deep in the pro-RKBA movement in America. Plus, look at how many people on this board love to fantasize about the Chinese, or whoever else, invading America (something that I've explained is basically impossible). Sometimes, I think these people actually miss the Cold War because it means they'll never get to experience a real-life "Red Dawn". Also, the rise in firearms sales after Obama's election is not coincidental - besides the (not-so-legitimate) fears of stricter gun control, a lot of gun owners have convinced themselves that his presidency is the first step to the People's Republic of America.

Of course, there's a difference between having retarded fantasies and Waco/Ruby Ridge. But I do think that more often than not, the RKBAers are their own worst enemy.