"New" Fn Fal being tested by the Argentine Army

[MT2008]

I'm surprised they don't just re-tool their factories to make 5.56x45mm FALs that accept the STANAG (which is basically what the Brazilians did).

[Markost]

Originally Posted by MT2008

I'm surprised they don't just re-tool their factories to make 5.56x45mm FALs that accept the STANAG (which is basically what the Brazilians did).

FM (the factory that produced them) made a Fal prototype in 5,56 in the 80´s, but it wasn´t produced. Anyway, there´s a few M4 , M16, Fara 83 and Steyr Aug in service, but they think this cardtrige is "too weak".

And about the brazilian Fal´s, check their new project (MD97 A2 in 5,56):

[MT2008]

Originally Posted by Markost

FM (the factory that produced them) made a Fal prototype in 5,56 in the 80´s, but it wasn´t produced. Anyway, there´s a few M4 , M16, Fara 83 and Steyr Aug in service, but they think this cardtrige is "too weak".

Hmmmm, I'm a little surprised then. But I mean, they do appreciate that the logic behind 5.56x45 is mostly wounding, not killing, right?

Originally Posted by Markost

And about the brazilian Fal´s, check their new project (MD97 A2 in 5,56):

Yeah, I saw that one. Dunno if Brazil's ever gonna have the money to standardize it, though. Even with the enormous modernization program which they began last year (for all branches of their armed forces), I think small arms are still going to be a low priority. They're basically trying to do the whole thing on a shoestring budget (by our standards).

My recollection is that a lot of the defense budget is going towards the new fighter program, as well as the new submarines. Both of which are extremely important if Brazil ever wants to be able to compete with Venezuela for regional military hegemony.

[Markost]

Brazil is like China: a big country with a big industry. Their fighter program ("FX-2") is, basically, choosing between the Rafale( Lula´s favourite), Grippen and F-18 and produce them under licence. That´s the difference between Brazil and Venezuela. Brazil produces tanks, armored vehicles, helicopters, planes and light weapons, meanwhile Venezuela buy their weapons to the russians.

But I mean, they do appreciate that the logic behind 5.56x45 is mostly wounding, not killing, right?

Mmm no, our forces´ doctrine is "one shot, one kill".

[Nyles]

Like my section commander in basic said - if you kill a guy, you just pissed off his buddies on either side of him. If you wound him, they have to give him first aid, carry him back, and then he's a burden on his unit and economy for anything from a few days to life.

I have to say, if you're really wedded to the 7.62mm (after 6 months in Afghanistan I will not question the effectiveness of the 5.56mm round), frankly just slapping some rails and maybe ambi controls on the old FN Para FAL would do it for me.

[MT2008]

Originally Posted by Markost

Brazil is like China: a big country with a big industry. Their fighter program ("FX-2") is, basically, choosing between the Rafale( Lula´s favourite), Grippen and F-18 and produce them under licence. That´s the difference between Brazil and Venezuela. Brazil produces tanks, armored vehicles, helicopters, planes and light weapons, meanwhile Venezuela buy their weapons to the russians.

Venezuela does have the ability to make small arms, though (including the AK factory the Russians are helping them build). That means they can flood Brazil, or Colombia (or any other country that hates Chavez) with lots of automatic weapons and ammo, which will go straight to narco-insurgents like FARC or the drug gangs. We know they're already doing this to some degree. That could be pretty painful for those targeted countries if it ties up their security forces with internal concerns.

Originally Posted by Markost

Mmm no, our forces´ doctrine is "one shot, one kill".

Makes sense for designated marksmen, but anyone else, hmmm...

Originally Posted by Nyles

Like my section commander in basic said - if you kill a guy, you just pissed off his buddies on either side of him. If you wound him, they have to give him first aid, carry him back, and then he's a burden on his unit and economy for anything from a few days to life.

Exactly. Though that does make the assumption that the guy's buddies (and his COs) don't associate a concept like "first aid" with the bourgeois. Or the evil infidels.

But all things being considered, I think 5.56x45 does the job just fine.

[Nyles]

Actually, the Taliban are huge on getting thier wounded evacuated and to medical attention. I can't really go into detail, but they do not abandon their wounded.

[MT2008]

Originally Posted by Nyles

Actually, the Taliban are huge on getting thier wounded evacuated and to medical attention. I can't really go into detail, but they do not abandon their wounded.

Hmmm, interesting, though it makes sense when I think about it. The Taliban have never quite as big into martyrdom as the rest of the Islamic world (they were latecomers to the suicide bombing trend, considering how long they've been around).

Originally Posted by Markost

Venezuela make the "new" Aks and, maybe, some other russian weapons, and yes, they can flood other countries (remember the AT4´s incident some months ago), that´s why there´s a new arms race: Brasil (FX-2 program and submarines, buying refurbished Leopards 1, producing the COIN Super Tucano), Ecuador, Peru, Colombia and Chile (buying Leopards 2 and planes). Chavez, drugs and the natural resources are the main problems in this region.

Yeah, the AT4 incident is what I had in mind. Though even before that, everyone knew that Chavez was providing aid to FARC. As his regime becomes less stable, though, there's a good chance he'll be willing to do a lot more of that stuff. Actually, I think that supporting proxy forces would be far more effective than any attempt to fight a conventional war with his neighbors.

Originally Posted by Markost

Honestly, the army (not the navy) hates the 5,56. Why? Because they have been using the same cartridge type for a century without problems, first the 7,65x54 and then the 7,62x51, this last one since the 50´s with the introduction of the Fal. This refurbished rifle is a temporary patch, FN Herstal has offered the FN2000 some years ago, but they want to keep the fire power. Personally, I´d choose the Fn Scar in both calibers, or the Bushmaster ACR.

Well, there is a path dependency argument to keep in mind. There are a lot of countries that never want to change weapons/calibers just because there's too little benefit to justify the costs. I had this same discussion once with a Hungarian about why his country's forces never gave up their 7.62x39mm AKMs (which they call AK-63s) in favor of a 5.45x39mm or 5.56x45mm rifle. Even after they joined NATO.

Originally Posted by Markost

Me too, but tell that to our Minister of Defence, who don´t want to make the 5,56 ammo here. That old lady is really annoying...

I can only imagine.

[Markost]

Originally Posted by MT2008

Venezuela does have the ability to make small arms, though (including the AK factory the Russians are helping them build). That means they can flood Brazil, or Colombia (or any other country that hates Chavez) with lots of automatic weapons and ammo, which will go straight to narco-insurgents like FARC or the drug gangs. We know they're already doing this to some degree. That could be pretty painful for those targeted countries if it ties up their security forces with internal concerns.

Venezuela make the "new" Aks and, maybe, some other russian weapons, and yes, they can flood other countries (remember the AT4´s incident some months ago), that´s why there´s a new arms race: Brasil (FX-2 program and submarines, buying refurbished Leopards 1, producing the COIN Super Tucano), Ecuador, Peru, Colombia and Chile (buying Leopards 2 and planes). Chavez, drugs and the natural resources are the main problems in this region.

Makes sense for designated marksmen, but anyone else, hmmm..

Honestly, the army (not the navy) hates the 5,56. Why? Because they have been using the same cartridge type for a century without problems, first the 7,65x54 and then the 7,62x51, this last one since the 50´s with the introduction of the Fal. This refurbished rifle is a temporary patch, FN Herstal has offered the FN2000 some years ago, but they want to keep the fire power. Personally, I´d choose the Fn Scar in both calibers, or the Bushmaster ACR.

But all things being considered, I think 5.56x45 does the job just fine.

Me too, but tell that to our Minister of Defence, who don´t want to make the 5,56 ammo here. That old lady is really annoying...

[Excalibur]

Originally Posted by Markost

And about the brazilian Fal´s, check their new project (MD97 A2 in 5,56):

Looks kinda like ACRs.