10mm Auto: (Un)fairly ignored?

[k9870]

for good reason

Cant beat A metal (solid feeling) confortable gripped , DA/SA, Night Sighted ultra reliable pistol. SIG kicks ass, has the guns I want (although making more stainless models, especially without the thick wood grips) would be nice.

[ManiacallyChallenged]

Reading that post, I could have sworn you were being posessed by our resident Smith nut.

[k9870]

Im a SIG nut, Id love a p220 stainless.

[S&Wshooter]

well k9870, since you have been accused of acting like me, you get the "badass of the week" award


Yes, that is Christopher effin' Walken immortalized in trophy form

[Yournamehere]

@ MT2008, when you put it that way, it makes a lot more sense. As far as Hollywood making it seem as if EVERYONE uses the Beretta, most of the cool action movies are set in Los Angeles, one of the few remaining departments that still approve the Beretta 92FS. It just struck me as kind of unbelievable because back in Florida, I would see Glocks and SIGs from time to time but I would see an equal amount of S&W autos and, get this, Walther P99s. I even saw some guys carrying Taurus revolvers which really skewed my table. This was all in one general area in one state within a few counties though, so it's a small percentage of the entire nation's police forces. Ah well, they can keep 'em. I have a Browning Hi-Power

[S&Wshooter]

Just about every cop I've ever seen had a Glock of some sort stuck in their holster, and I'm not just talking about the police in Texas

[Zulu Two Six]

that reminds me of when i was at the capitol.
one of my close friends had his hands in his jacket pockets. well...he couldn't get them out so he yanked em out real hard and fast (that's what she said) and his hands flew in the air and the Secret Service pulled their glocks on him.
he said he almost pissed himself

[MT2008]

Originally Posted by k9870

Cant beat A metal (solid feeling) confortable gripped , DA/SA, Night Sighted ultra reliable pistol. SIG kicks ass, has the guns I want (although making more stainless models, especially without the thick wood grips) would be nice.

Yeah, but the irony is that, as I've lamented in other topics, today's SIGs are of inferior quality to the ones that used to be imported from Germany. The new production ones with CNC-milled slides have that "top heavy" feel that many people complain about. I don't blame them, either. I'll take the stamped slide P228 over a new P229 DAK any day.

Also, the all-nickel (not stainless) SIGs were discontinued early on for a reason; the frames on those models had strength issues. Something about the way that SIG used to apply the nickel finish weakened the structural integrity of the nickel frames, and apparently they couldn't fix it, so they gave up and started offering the two-tone models.

Originally Posted by Yournamehere

@ MT2008, when you put it that way, it makes a lot more sense. As far as Hollywood making it seem as if EVERYONE uses the Beretta, most of the cool action movies are set in Los Angeles, one of the few remaining departments that still approve the Beretta 92FS. It just struck me as kind of unbelievable because back in Florida, I would see Glocks and SIGs from time to time but I would see an equal amount of S&W autos and, get this, Walther P99s. I even saw some guys carrying Taurus revolvers which really skewed my table. This was all in one general area in one state within a few counties though, so it's a small percentage of the entire nation's police forces. Ah well, they can keep 'em. I have a Browning Hi-Power

Yeah, but think about how many movies depict cops in New York, Chicago, Washington DC, etc. using Beretta 92Fs. In all of the "Spider-Man" movies, for example, the NYPD carries Berettas. More recently, I pointed out that in an episode from the current season of "24", an NYPD officer is also shown using a Beretta. The 92F is still basically the standard cop gun in Hollywood, even though in real life it's rare today and wasn't that common outside of Los Angeles even in the 1990s.

I see plenty of cops carrying S&W autos (the 5906, 4006, and 4506 still seem to be much-liked), but Glocks dominate, and SIGs are getting ever-more common.

[k9870]

I never felt a SIG to be top heavy, but then again ive only fired new p229s, a p226 and a p220. No older or W german guns. They feel good to me. And I have yet to have one jam on me. The nickle finish i don't care for, I like stainless though, for looks and easier shooting with bigger calibers. Although Id take an allow frame if I carried it.

[Mazryonh]

Okay,

While I'm certain this discussion of which non-10x25mm pistol is the best to carry for whatever reason will be quite productive in another topic, I'd like to see if I can bring this discussion back on topic and get my remaining questions answered.

From what I've read, there seem to be wildly differing opinions on whether this cartridge was difficult to shoot. Here's one account opposing that "difficult to shoot" opinion:

http://www.carryconcealed.net/colt-g...lta-elite-10mm

If indeed more practice could tame this "too-powerful" cartridge, why didn't the FBI just do testing and mandate that the agents without medical problems train well enough with the 10x25mm to score high enough on marksmanship tests? I still think the OHWS program missed a golden opportunity by not choosing the 10x25mm cartridge, since the target market (Special Forces Operators) would have anything but "girly wrists", and definitely could have used the extra range, stopping power, and capacity over the .45 ACP eventually chosen for the program. No, I am not one of those people who say that "every soldier should have a .50 AE Desert Eagle for a backup weapon," but the 10x25mm cartridge still seems to surpass the .45 ACP in every one of those parameters I mentioned, except for the .45 ACP's subsonic velocity and thus greater subtlety when used with a sound suppressor.

The cost of the cartridge, as I said before, is really a commercial decision and originally outside the scope of this discussion, but people making the right decisions can and do get cartridges widely manufactured distributed to the point where they are quite affordable, kind of like how the 5.56x45mm round became a NATO standard despite the opposition from several fronts.

I also happened upon two interesting articles talking about how the 5.56mm round in compact assault rifles has had a low stopping-power-per-bullet ratio, and how adopting a 10mm round from SMGs or carbines could help in Urban combat or peace-keeping. Here they are:

http://www.g2mil.com/park.htm

http://www.g2mil.com/10mm.htm

What about recoil in the SMGs and Pistol-Caliber Carbines? With the greater weight of the firearm, I doubt the recoil would be as much of an issue. Has anyone ever actually fired an SMG or Pistol-Caliber Carbine chambered for 10x25mm? Was it much more difficult than one chambered for 9x19mm or .45 ACP? If converting a firearm from .40 S&W to fire 10x25mm is "no big deal," then why can't Beretta release a 10x25mm conversion kit to change its Cx4 Storm carbines from .40 S&W to 10x25mm?

Here are a few websites selling 10x25mm Pistol-Caliber Carbines:

http://www.paladinarmory.com/SBR.htm

http://www.mechtechsys.com/

http://www.guns-rifles-firearms.com/...es/Page637.htm

Finally I'm also quite confused as to why IMI decided to make the .41 Action Express round, and even to create an Uzi SMG variant when the 10x25mm was already the .41 Magnum's "ballistic twin." In fact, some of the Pistol-Caliber Carbine manufacturers making carbines for 10x25mm are using some of these old Uzi mags!

As always, relevant information would be appreciated.