Heckler & Koch - overrated?

[jdun]

The M14 and FAL are almost the same size. Of the three major battle rifles that was use in that era (M14, FAL, G3), the G3 was by far the worst. The AR10 which came a little later didn't take off until now.

I don't think any Special Force unit have the Mk.23 in their armory. I know that the standard MP5 are out. However, they do have the MP5SD but SEAL don't train with them from what SMGLee posted.

[k9870]

The mp5 is popular because integrally supressed subguns can easily be used effectively, silencing an m4 you need subsonic ammo that would make the 556 a popgun as it needs velocity for the tiny round to work.

[Rockwolf66]

Originally Posted by jdun

The M14 and FAL are almost the same size. Of the three major battle rifles that was use in that era (M14, FAL, G3), the G3 was by far the worst. The AR10 which came a little later didn't take off until now.

That depends on who you talk to. I know of a guy who used to have all sorts of fun and games back in Northern Ireland. The Unit he was with Issued the MP-5K, the HK-53 and the G-3KA4 for various reasons. The weapons were liked because they were compact and very accurate. Now while I personally prefer the M-14E2 or a short barreled FN-FAL if I had to train and equip a unit for a fluid urban battlfield I would buy the H&K roller lock family of weapons. The reasoning is that it simplifies training and logistics.

[MT2008]

Originally Posted by Rockwolf66

That depends on who you talk to. I know of a guy who used to have all sorts of fun and games back in Northern Ireland. The Unit he was with Issued the MP-5K, the HK-53 and the G-3KA4 for various reasons. The weapons were liked because they were compact and very accurate. Now while I personally prefer the M-14E2 or a short barreled FN-FAL if I had to train and equip a unit for a fluid urban battlfield I would buy the H&K roller lock family of weapons. The reasoning is that it simplifies training and logistics.

Ah, that's good, hope he was laying the smackdown on those IRA bastards.

Anyway, H&Ks may be accurate, and it may be simpler to train your guys if you have a whole family of weapons that used basically the same operating system, but fact is that the roller-locking H&K rifles have pretty poor ergonomics.

[Zombees]

It's funny, I always thought the MP5 was so popular because it was an excellent weapon. Like "The Number one SMG in the world" kind of excellent. Since the MP5 dominates the media so much, I assumed it was highly favored by Tactical teams and Special Forces people. Even on the news, when they show SWAT teams, most of the time they're carrying MP5s or M4s(then again, I haven't watched the news in awhile...). I'm sure it's still a fine weapon, just not the Godly SMG that Hollywood and Video games seems to make it be.

On the topic of H&K's other weapons, for a while I really did think the 416 was superior to the M4. And this wasn't based off videogames. I remeber reading an article about a year ago, which brought into question the M4's reliability. There were a few testimonys, from US soldiers stationed in Iraq, regarding jamming and weapon malfunctions. It was mentioned those problems could be solved by daily cleanings, but sometimes soldiers don't have time to maintain their weapons. Of course, the article's solution was the HK 416, which supposedly "had the M4's excellent handling, with the durability of an AK47".
There was also a mention of Special Forces teams trying the 416 and loving it. So I assumed that the 416 was a superior weapon. After all, Special Forces are some of the toughest guys on the planet, if they like it, it has to be good, right?
Thinking back on it, I can't help but wonder if that article may have just been propaganda from HK themselves...

That also brings up the Mk. 23. Once again, I assumed it was a great weapon because it was issued to... the NAVY SEALS! The SEALs are the toughest hombres on the planet, if they're using it, then it must be awsome! Right?

See, this is my problem, I never base my opinions on guns from games, because they're always altered to keep the gameplay balanced. But when you mention "Special Forces" in the same sentence as a gun brand, I immediatly assume it has to be a superior weapon.

[k9870]

I don't believe the 416 to be really very good. It does jam less. Definitely more reliable. But very few test models shot below 4, yes 4, MOA at 100 yards. It is definitely not an accurate system. But HK counters by saying since it's for room clearing it doesn't matter?

[Rockwolf66]

Originally Posted by Zombees

It's funny, I always thought the MP5 was so popular because it was an excellent weapon. Like "The Number one SMG in the world" kind of excellent. Since the MP5 dominates the media so much, I assumed it was highly favored by Tactical teams and Special Forces people. Even on the news, when they show SWAT teams, most of the time they're carrying MP5s or M4s(then again, I haven't watched the news in awhile...). I'm sure it's still a fine weapon, just not the Godly SMG that Hollywood and Video games seems to make it be.

From what I've gotten from Former SAS members is that the reason they chose the MP-5 was that because of the closed bolt the first round fired was dead on target. in the type of work where they used the MP-5, HK-53 or G-3KA4 they could not afford to have bullets everywhere.

In Oman and Yemen they prefered anything that could reach out the sometimes Vast distances that you can clearly see someone. heck one member once commented to me that for distance work in the Middle East he prefered a WW2 era Mauser.

[MT2008]

Originally Posted by Zombees

It's funny, I always thought the MP5 was so popular because it was an excellent weapon. Like "The Number one SMG in the world" kind of excellent. Since the MP5 dominates the media so much, I assumed it was highly favored by Tactical teams and Special Forces people. Even on the news, when they show SWAT teams, most of the time they're carrying MP5s or M4s(then again, I haven't watched the news in awhile...). I'm sure it's still a fine weapon, just not the Godly SMG that Hollywood and Video games seems to make it be.

Actually, if you watch the news nowadays, you won't see too many SWAT teams using the MP5 anymore. Most SWAT teams have been going back to .223-caliber rifles in the past 5 years, and phasing out subguns as their primary weapons. The reason being that a number of studies have found that in CQB, .223 doesn't really tend to over-penetrate any more than 9mm against soft targets. But it does perform vastly better against body armor. So nowadays, most SWAT teams carry the M4, or other derivatives. The G36 series is probably the 2nd most popular .223 carbine amongst SWAT teams after the M4, but if so, then it's a pretty distant second.

Originally Posted by Zombees

On the topic of H&K's other weapons, for a while I really did think the 416 was superior to the M4. And this wasn't based off videogames. I remeber reading an article about a year ago, which brought into question the M4's reliability. There were a few testimonys, from US soldiers stationed in Iraq, regarding jamming and weapon malfunctions. It was mentioned those problems could be solved by daily cleanings, but sometimes soldiers don't have time to maintain their weapons. Of course, the article's solution was the HK 416, which supposedly "had the M4's excellent handling, with the durability of an AK47".

"Durability" and "reliability" are two different things.

Anyway, I don't think there's much dispute that the 416 is an improvement over the M4. It's just a question of whether it's enough of an improvement to justify the cost. And H&K has never shown a willingness to be flexible, even when it means losing DoD contracts. That's why nearly every weapon H&K has ever submitted to the DoD for testing winds up losing out to someone else...usually FN, nowadays.

Originally Posted by Zombees

That also brings up the Mk. 23. Once again, I assumed it was a great weapon because it was issued to... the NAVY SEALS! The SEALs are the toughest hombres on the planet, if they're using it, then it must be awsome! Right?

Larry Correia mentions this, but the truth is that almost all of the SF units that were issued Mark 23s never actually carry them. The Mark 23 was designed specifically for SOCOM, but SF guys hate it. Most of our SF operators carry either 1911 derivatives or SIG-Sauers.

Originally Posted by Zombees

See, this is my problem, I never base my opinions on guns from games, because they're always altered to keep the gameplay balanced. But when you mention "Special Forces" in the same sentence as a gun brand, I immediatly assume it has to be a superior weapon.

As I've said, very few American SF units use H&Ks anymore. The MP5 used to be popular in the days where 9mm was considered the only acceptable cartridge for CQB, but those days are long past.

Also, if you check out the inventories of SFs of almost any country in the world that is friendly to the U.S., you will find that nearly all of them use M16s and M4s as their primary long guns. H&K's .223s, including the G36 series and 416, are not nearly as popular as the American M16 family of weapons.

[Spartan198]

Originally Posted by MT2008

H&K's .223s, including the G36 series and 416, are not nearly as popular as the American M16 family of weapons.

One reason being, I think, is because HKs are horrendously expensive. Last I heard, retail on a 416 was something like $4,000 USD, compared to an MRP, for example, which ranges in the $1,400 area.

[Zombees]

Originally Posted by MT2008

"Durability" and "reliability" are two different things.

Anyway, I don't think there's much dispute that the 416 is an improvement over the M4. It's just a question of whether it's enough of an improvement to justify the cost. And H&K has never shown a willingness to be flexible, even when it means losing DoD contracts. That's why nearly every weapon H&K has ever submitted to the DoD for testing winds up losing out to someone else...usually FN, nowadays.
.

That was my error, I meant so say reliability. Sorry bout that.

Originally Posted by MT2008

Also, if you check out the inventories of SFs of almost any country in the world that is friendly to the U.S., you will find that nearly all of them use M16s and M4s as their primary long guns. H&K's .223s, including the G36 series and 416, are not nearly as popular as the American M16 family of weapons.

Heh, that's funny because I remember another article about the M4, where it mentions that Special Forces teams around the world LOVE the M4.