Combined force in Río de Janeiro

[BurtReynoldsMoustache]

Originally Posted by Markost

Looks like you don´t know anything about Brazil. Acording to you, drug dealers and gangs are "disadvantaged citizens". Nice...

If they weren't poor and living in shacks they wouldn't be selling drugs in the first place. Maybe things are different down there (I don't think they are) but generally people with money don't resort to crime. People with a secure position in society don't form street gangs.

And no this doesn't make it "safe" again. They've just created a vacuum that will shortly be filled by the next gang, and they're going to go into it even more violently then the last one. Unless they just bulldozed the entire favela and built proper housing over it. And even if they did that, they'd have a shitload of displaced impoverished people. Wonder what they would do to survive then? Oh right, commit more crimes.

I wouldn't stand for this crap in my own country, I'm not going to stand for it in somebody else's.

[Markost]

Originally Posted by BurtReynoldsMoustache

People with a secure position in society don't form street gangs.

You´re wrong, we´re not talking about Central America Maras, we´re talking about organized crime. Just like the russian mafia or mexican drug cartels.

And no this doesn't make it "safe" again. They've just created a vacuum that will shortly be filled by the next gang, and they're going to go into it even more violently then the last one. Unless they just bulldozed the entire favela and built proper housing over it. And even if they did that, they'd have a shitload of displaced impoverished people. Wonder what they would do to survive then? Oh right, commit more crimes.

Dude, in the favelas you´ll find the criminals and gangster, but many people are honest and hardworking (in fact, there are more workers than criminals). The Alemao was an example of that: a gang controlling an entire zone. Once you defeat the gangs, the police and later the goverment controls the area. Just think about your neighborhood after 20 years with no government presence or police.

Oh, and about the bulldozing, there´s a plan being developed since Lula´s government to urbanize the favelas. But seriously, can you build schools, houses and streets while everything is being controlled by gangs? I don´t think so.

You're still not going to need an entire battalion of mechanized infantry to do it.

You realize that you need mechanized infantry when your enemy can shoot down helicopters... ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsjywM4BBpE )

[BurtReynoldsMoustache]

Originally Posted by Markost

You´re wrong, we´re not talking about Central America Maras, we´re talking about organized crime. Just like the russian mafia or mexican drug cartels.

You think those organizations were born of bored rich dudes? They all started with a few impoverished individuals deciding they didn't want to follow the rules anymore and that they would get rich or die trying. The Russian mafia is an evolution of medieval bandit guilds. I don't know the exact origins of the Mexican cartels, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't a weekend project for some listless industrialists.

Originally Posted by Markost

Dude, in the favelas you´ll find the criminals and gangster, but many people are honest and hardworking (in fact, there are more workers than criminals). The Alemao was an example of that: a gang controlling an entire zone. Once you defeat the gangs, the police and later the goverment controls the area. Just think about your neighborhood after 20 years with no government presence or police.

The gangs only have that capability because they make so much money from drugs.

Originally Posted by Markost

Oh, and about the bulldozing, there´s a plan being developed since Lula´s government to urbanize the favelas. But seriously, can you build schools, houses and streets while everything is being controlled by gangs? I don´t think so.

That sounds like a good idea, but only if they allow the displaced population to remain. You can't kick people out, pave over everything, and then build mansions. They'll just start up a new slum somewhere else.

Originally Posted by Markost

You realize that you need mechanized infantry when your enemy can shoot down helicopters... ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsjywM4BBpE )

Human trafficking and auto theft doesn't yield enough money for that sort of thing. That was the point I was trying to make.

[k9870]

Gun running gets huge profits and has the hardware necessary for shooting down a helicopter or taking out a patrol all over.

[Markost]

Originally Posted by BurtReynoldsMoustache

That sounds like a good idea, but only if they allow the displaced population to remain. You can't kick people out, pave over everything, and then build mansions. They'll just start up a new slum somewhere else.

Who the hell is talking about kicking people?

[BurtReynoldsMoustache]

Originally Posted by Markost

Who the hell is talking about kicking people?

What exactly is the plan? How can you urbanize the favelas if you don't tear them down first? All the buildings look pretty rickety to me.

[k9870]

There not urbanizing, they are going in to secure the area and keep crime down. Not every action is "the man opressing the poor folks by advancing corporate agendas" or that crap.

[Markost]

Originally Posted by BurtReynoldsMoustache

What exactly is the plan? How can you urbanize the favelas if you don't tear them down first? All the buildings look pretty rickety to me.

Urbanizing is giving water, electricity, gas, roads and schools to the citizens in the favelas. Then you can start talking about better houses, made by their owners, with state aid. Nobody is talking about kicking them out.

So again, how the hell are you going to do all of this while the Alemao is controlled by gangs?

[BurtReynoldsMoustache]

Originally Posted by Markost

Urbanizing is giving water, electricity, gas, roads and schools to the citizens in the favelas. Then you can start talking about better houses, made by their owners, with state aid. Nobody is talking about kicking them out.

So again, how the hell are you going to do all of this while the Alemao is controlled by gangs?

Well you have a point there.