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  #11  
Old 04-14-2011, 01:52 AM
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Originally Posted by BurtReynoldsMoustache View Post
What is the stamping on the bottom one behind the folded stock? It looks like that one might not even be of Israeli origin. Also why is "Micro" not as prominently stamped in there? I didn't notice it before because of how faint it is.
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Both of these guns (they are from the inventory of MPM2008's company, and were photographed by him) are civilian Uzi Pistols (imported by Action Arms) that were converted to full-auto (and they're also converted to blank-fire, since they're intended for movie use). The "A" for auto was stamped in after the auto sear was added, and so was the "Micro" printed next to "Uzi Pistol". I have no idea who did the conversion work on either of these guns, but I believe most of the full-auto Uzi Pistols in prop houses' inventories were modified by LaFrance Specialties in the 1980s. You'd have to ask MPM in order to be sure who modified these particular weapons.

The reason we call all of these guns "Micro Uzis" and not "Uzi Pistols" is because there are almost no genuine "Micro Uzis" in Hollywood. Actually, make that Uzis, period. Almost any time you've seen an Uzi variant in a movie or TV show filmed outside of Israel (whether full-size, Mini, or Micro), you are looking at a civilian variant that has been converted to full-auto. So my point is, if you were to try and distinguish between the "Micro Uzis" and "Uzi Pistols", you might as well just call all of them Uzi Pistols.
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Last edited by MT2008; 04-14-2011 at 01:56 AM.
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  #12  
Old 04-14-2011, 01:59 AM
BurtReynoldsMoustache BurtReynoldsMoustache is offline
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Originally Posted by MT2008 View Post
The reason we call all of these guns "Micro Uzis" and not "Uzi Pistols" is because there are almost no genuine "Micro Uzis" in Hollywood. Actually, make that Uzis, period. Almost any time you've seen an Uzi variant in a movie or TV show filmed outside of Israel (whether full-size, Mini, or Micro), you are looking at a civilian variant that has been converted to full-auto. So my point is, if you were to try and distinguish between the "Micro Uzis" and "Uzi Pistols", you might as well just call all of them Uzi Pistols.
Don't we have rules for similar situations for other guns that default to the exact opposite conclusion? Assuming HK91 over G3 is the only one I can think of specifically off the top of my head.

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Originally Posted by MT2008 View Post
Both of these guns (they are from the inventory of MPM2008's company, and were photographed by him) are civilian Uzi Pistols (imported by Action Arms) that were converted to full-auto (and they're also converted to blank-fire, since they're intended for movie use). The "A" for auto was stamped in after the auto sear was added, and so was the "Micro" printed next to "Uzi Pistol". I have no idea who did the conversion work on either of these guns, but I believe most of the full-auto Uzi Pistols in prop houses' inventories were modified by LaFrance Specialties in the 1980s. You'd have to ask MPM in order to be sure who modified these particular weapons.
And now that we know this, we can know with almost complete certainty that you can tell a Micro Uzi from an Uzi Pistol by the muzzle. Also for video games and animation there's no reason to assume Micro Uzi. If it's drawn/rendered as an Uzi Pistol, it's an Uzi Pistol.

Last edited by BurtReynoldsMoustache; 04-14-2011 at 02:06 AM.
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  #13  
Old 04-14-2011, 02:08 AM
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Originally Posted by BurtReynoldsMoustache View Post
Don't we have rules for similar situations for other guns that default to the exact opposite conclusion? Assuming HK91 over G3 is the only one I can think of specifically off the top of my head.
Good point. As far as the HK91/G3 distinction goes, I would consider the level of conversion before choosing one over the other (i.e. if it's an HK91 was a full-auto trigger pack inside, but no external modifications to resemble a G3, it's fair to call it an HK91). Likewise, when we see those HK94s that have been only partially converted to MP5 specification (full-auto and chopped barrel, but no other mods), we call them something like "HK94 (mocked up as MP5)".

It sounds to me as though what you are proposing (to be analogous) is that if you see a full-auto Uzi Pistol that lacks the side-folding stock, it would be labeled "Uzi Pistol" and not "Micro Uzi". Or maybe "Uzi Pistol (mocked up as Micro Uzi)".

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Originally Posted by BurtReynoldsMoustache View Post
we can know with almost complete certainty that you can tell a Micro Uzi from an Uzi Pistol by the muzzle.
Yeah, I should think so. Or at least, that is what I have understood. I would think the mil-spec Micro Uzi needs a compensated barrel for control during automatic fire. I would guess that a civilian Uzi Pistol could be modified to take a Micro Uzi barrel, but MPM's guns don't have such barrels because they don't need them - they have been modified to fire only blanks, which don't have much recoil. (This is also why many of the full-auto Uzi Pistols in Hollywood are also lacking stocks.)
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Last edited by MT2008; 04-14-2011 at 02:14 AM.
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  #14  
Old 04-14-2011, 02:12 AM
BurtReynoldsMoustache BurtReynoldsMoustache is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MT2008 View Post
Good point. As far as the HK91/G3 distinction goes, I would consider the level of conversion before choosing one over the other (i.e. if it's an HK91 was a full-auto trigger pack inside, but no external modifications to resemble a G3, it's fair to call it an HK91). Likewise, when we see those HK94s that have been only partially converted to MP5 specification (full-auto and chopped barrel, but no other mods), we call them something like "HK94 (mocked up as MP5)".

It sounds to me as though what you are proposing (to be analogous) is that if you see a full-auto Uzi Pistol that lacks the side-folding stock, it would be labeled "Uzi Pistol" and not "Micro Uzi". Or maybe "Uzi Pistol (mocked up as Micro Uzi)".
They're not really "mocked up" if they're just converted to automatic fire. An M16A2 converted to full auto is not mocked up as an M16A3. Compare to HK94's with chopped down barrels or M2HB's dressed up as DShK's. "Micro Uzi (converted to full auto)" or something similar would be appropriate though. An Uzi Pistol modified with a folding stock could be considered mocked up as a Micro Uzi.
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Old 04-14-2011, 02:27 AM
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Also, I almost forgot to mention that I wrote a note about this on the Micro Uzi section of the Uzi page. Here's what I wrote:

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The semi-automatic civilian version of the Micro Uzi was imported and sold in the United States by Action Arms (the same company which imported the Uzi Carbine) as simply the Uzi Pistol. Visually, the most obvious difference between the two versions is that the Uzi Pistol lacks the side-folding stock seen on the full-auto mil-spec Micro Uzi.

In American action films, most of the "Micro Uzis" are actually semi-automatic Uzi Pistols that have been converted to full-automatic fire by the prop houses' armories, hence the reason they lack the stock. However, IMFDB still refers to them as Micro Uzis, even though this was not the importer's designation.
It was the best I could do to clear up the confusion. Also, I stand by what I said in this paragraph: As best I know, it was only Action Arms who called their civilian Micro Uzis "Uzi Pistols". If you were to find semi-auto Micro Uzis in other countries, they might still be called "Micro Uzi", for all I know.

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Originally Posted by BurtReynoldsMoustache View Post
They're not really "mocked up" if they're just converted to automatic fire. An M16A2 converted to full auto is not mocked up as an M16A3. Compare to HK94's with chopped down barrels or M2HB's dressed up as DShK's. "Micro Uzi (converted to full auto)" or something similar would be appropriate though. An Uzi Pistol modified with a folding stock could be considered mocked up as a Micro Uzi.
You'll always be able to find exceptions to the rule, but in the case of the M16A2, we dealt with the issue by explaining that "M16A2s" in Hollywood are almost always A2 uppers on A1 lowers. Sometimes, it's just a matter of convenience, because we have to deal with the fact that movie guns are frequently different from mil-spec weapons.

I do think that maybe saying "Uzi Pistol (converted to full-auto)" would work, assuming we want to use Action Arms' name for them.
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  #16  
Old 04-14-2011, 02:30 AM
BurtReynoldsMoustache BurtReynoldsMoustache is offline
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Wikipedia says the Uzi Pistol predates the Micro Uzi by 2 years. It's not a civilian version of the Micro Uzi, the Micro Uzi is a military/LE version of the Uzi Pistol.
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  #17  
Old 04-14-2011, 03:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BurtReynoldsMoustache View Post
Wikipedia says the Uzi Pistol predates the Micro Uzi by 2 years. It's not a civilian version of the Micro Uzi, the Micro Uzi is a military/LE version of the Uzi Pistol.
But my point is, Action Arms called them Uzi Pistols, but they were just the importer. IMI may have called the semi-auto version Micro Uzi.
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  #18  
Old 04-14-2011, 06:44 AM
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Originally Posted by MT2008 View Post
But my point is, Action Arms called them Uzi Pistols, but they were just the importer. IMI may have called the semi-auto version Micro Uzi.
That's an iffy hypothesis. They already made the semiauto Uzi Pistol before the Micro Uzi existed. Why would they make an additional semiautomatic version that's exactly the same except for the name? Even on the picture of the one we have, it's stamped "Uzi Pistol". The "micro" is stamped differently, I can't explain that. I guess we'll wait for MPM to chime in if he feels so inclined.
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  #19  
Old 04-21-2011, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BurtReynoldsMoustache View Post
That's an iffy hypothesis. They already made the semiauto Uzi Pistol before the Micro Uzi existed. Why would they make an additional semiautomatic version that's exactly the same except for the name? Even on the picture of the one we have, it's stamped "Uzi Pistol". The "micro" is stamped differently, I can't explain that. I guess we'll wait for MPM to chime in if he feels so inclined.
I know that the semi-auto version existed before the full-auto version, but what I am saying is that IMI might have called them BOTH Micro Uzi. "Uzi Pistol" might just be the term Action Arms used. Also, the stamping "Uzi Pistol" would have been added by AA.

Anyway, regarding the issue in general, if you want to call them "Uzi Pistols", fine. I am just explaining to you that it's a somewhat gray area because any time you see a full-auto "Micro Uzi" in Hollywood, whether it has a folding stock or not, you are looking at an Uzi Pistol that was converted to full-auto, not a mil-spec "Micro Uzi".
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