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  #1  
Old 06-04-2009, 03:51 AM
jdun jdun is offline
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Default Pistons dont get dirty <---------- LOL

Keep in mind the US military rated the M16 DI with one malfunction for every 4000+ rounds fired. The AK has only a slight advantage over the AR in reliability.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.htm...=446047&page=1
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  #2  
Old 06-04-2009, 04:40 AM
Phoenixent Phoenixent is offline
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That's a little bit of a miss conception on that article. The HK416 was fired with a suppressor. I don't know if you have fired a suppressed weapon but I have and any excess gas trap in the suppressor goes back into the action. I fired a HK MP5SD and the smell from the gas coming back into the receiver was burning my eyes. If you fire a M4 with a suppressor the excess gas and noise escapes though the two gas ports in the carrier. Also it could also be that the PMC and the XM193 that he used was not the ammo recommended by AAC for use with the suppressor.
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Old 06-04-2009, 05:08 AM
jdun jdun is offline
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There was no miss reporting. He stated that his gun was fire suppress. It makes no difference between a DI and piston where the fouling will be located when using a suppressor. It will go back toward the chamber and onto the bolt.

If is unsuppressed, the fouling in a piston rifle will be located in the piston and piston tube. In a DI it will be on the bolt.

My experience with suppress M4 is the gas blow through the charging handle into my eye. That is taking care of when you use gas sealant on the charging handle or buy a gas blocker charging handle.

It doesn't matter if there is excess fouling as long as it is lubed in an AR15 DI.

The US military has tested and rated the M16 with one jam for every 4000+ round fired.
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  #4  
Old 06-04-2009, 06:41 AM
Phoenixent Phoenixent is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdun View Post
The US military has tested and rated the M16 with one jam for every 4000+ round fired.
Non - AR15.com Link please for this statement.
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  #5  
Old 06-04-2009, 06:50 AM
Phoenixent Phoenixent is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdun View Post
There was no miss reporting. He stated that his gun was fire suppress. It makes no difference between a DI and piston where the fouling will be located when using a suppressor. It will go back toward the chamber and onto the bolt.

If is unsuppressed, the fouling in a piston rifle will be located in the piston and piston tube. In a DI it will be on the bolt.

My experience with suppress M4 is the gas blow through the charging handle into my eye. That is taking care of when you use gas sealant on the charging handle or buy a gas blocker charging handle.

It doesn't matter if there is excess fouling as long as it is lubed in an AR15 DI.

The US military has tested and rated the M16 with one jam for every 4000+ round fired.
Quote:
Originally Posted by new-arguy
This is my HK 416 upper, I ran it with an AAC 416 silencer at the last Magpul Dynamics class here in St Augustine. 2 days, 2000 rounds. I only took the silencer off the start of day 2 for a few drills, I would guess about 150 rounds. All the rest were with the can. I dropped some lube in the gun at the start of the class, aside from that, no cleaning, no oil, nothing at all. No problems either, well, not really. I will admit, I have run regular DI guns like this without problems, but I needed to keep dumping oil on the bolt group. In fact, one of the guys who works with me ran his Noveske N4 with a AAC M4 2000 right next to me the whole class. His gun ran fine as well, but he did keep dumping lube into the bolt carrier.
I would say that the HK416 worked better being completely dry as compared to the M4 which needed a ton of lube poured into it. A ton of lube in any weapon used in a desert environment is not good at all.

All weapons foul up their gas system. I am saying from experience that the piston system is more robust then the DI. Also the fouling is not inside the bolt carrier on a piston system as in the DI.
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  #6  
Old 06-04-2009, 07:16 AM
jdun jdun is offline
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I don't have the link it was a white paper on the M16 published on carbon paper in the 80's.

If you don't lube your weapon any weapon it won't function. That's a fact. You might get lucky and work without lube like Big Bore stated but would your risk your life on it? No run your weapon wet.

All piston AR and rifle that design similar to it has one big problem. Piston binding. The piston jam on the gas tube. Once that happen it's over because there is only one way to clear the malfunction and if that doesn't work you have to do a complete disassemble. Collapsed the stock slam it on the ground as hard and fast as possible and hope the piston unbind itself.

Unless it is a oversize gas tube like the AK the risk of piston binding are high.

Of course there will be less fouling on the bolt in a piston rifle because the gas is hitting the piston. The fouling will in the piston and gas tube as I pointed out many times. The fouling will be the same but in different location between DI and piston rifles. The fouling does not magically disappear on a piston rifle it just deposit at a different place.

HK416 in suppress mode jamming.
http://rpginn.com/index.php?option=c...=443&Itemid=39

Last edited by jdun; 06-04-2009 at 07:23 AM.
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  #7  
Old 06-04-2009, 08:08 AM
Phoenixent Phoenixent is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdun View Post
I don't have the link it was a white paper on the M16 published on carbon paper in the 80's.
I will look through my paperwork to see if I can verify those figures. But in the 70's and 80' the M16 still had a lot of issues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdun View Post
If you don't lube your weapon any weapon it won't function. That's a fact. You might get lucky and work without lube like Big Bore stated but would your risk your life on it? No run your weapon wet.
Lube you weapon is what you are supposed to do. Not drowned it in CLP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdun View Post
All piston AR and rifle that design similar to it has one big problem. Piston binding. The piston jam on the gas tube. Once that happen it's over because there is only one way to clear the malfunction and if that doesn't work you have to do a complete disassemble. Collapsed the stock slam it on the ground as hard and fast as possible and hope the piston unbind itself.

Unless it is a oversize gas tube like the AK the risk of piston binding are high.

Of course there will be less fouling on the bolt in a piston rifle because the gas is hitting the piston. The fouling will in the piston and gas tube as I pointed out many times. The fouling will be the same but in different location between DI and piston rifles. The fouling does not magically disappear on a piston rifle it just deposit at a different place.
I have had more gas tubes turn into a piece of spaghetti on a AR than pistons binding in AR180,AK, and FAL while firing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdun View Post
Watched the video and seen the jam it could have been anything as they were more concerned with the GemTec.
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  #8  
Old 06-04-2009, 12:22 PM
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k9870 k9870 is offline
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Quote:
M16 DI with one malfunction for every 4000+ rounds fired.
What does it consider a malfunction? It sure jams more than that. And as far as AKs though ive seen AKs shoot a ton of cheapo wolf, with little oil and barely any cleaning other than an occasional boresnake. Also seen stock m16a2s start jamming once they were switched to 3 round burst. My friends military issue m16a3 manual says to expect a Jam every 90-120 rounds, so learning to clear a jam properly is of utmost importance. DI guns heat up real easy too. And I take things on AR-15.com with a little skepticism, I mean, seriously, If an article about FALs came from a site called FAL.com, wouldn't you think theres just a little bias.?

Last edited by k9870; 06-04-2009 at 12:29 PM.
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  #9  
Old 06-04-2009, 05:34 PM
Phoenixent Phoenixent is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k9870 View Post
What does it consider a malfunction? It sure jams more than that. And as far as AKs though ive seen AKs shoot a ton of cheapo wolf, with little oil and barely any cleaning other than an occasional boresnake. Also seen stock m16a2s start jamming once they were switched to 3 round burst. My friends military issue m16a3 manual says to expect a Jam every 90-120 rounds, so learning to clear a jam properly is of utmost importance. DI guns heat up real easy too. And I take things on AR-15.com with a little skepticism, I mean, seriously, If an article about FALs came from a site called FAL.com, wouldn't you think theres just a little bias.?
I can't wait to see the next post or thread by jdun. It will be the same thing just worded differently that's all.

The M16 is over 50 years old for some it and the AK are the only weapons they have experienced during their life. That is how you have sites like AR15.com or AK.com and heaven forbid you go there and say anything they don't agree with you will be banded automatically.
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