imfdb.org  

Go Back   imfdb.org > The Forum > Just Guns

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old 12-29-2008, 08:20 PM
Pointy Sextant Pointy Sextant is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 15
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyles View Post
A .22 round will go that far (at least out of a rifle), but no handgun has the accuracy to do that. It's not a question of skill, even if it's completley immobilised in a mechanical rest and you've got a ballistic computer handy, it simply does not have the intrinsic accuracy to make that shot. Handguns are handguns and rifles are rifles.

Although even with a rifle that's a hell of a shot - all false modesty aside, in the military I'm considered an above average marksman. Using an open-sighted rifle (specifically a C7 or SA80A2) I can knock down a man sized target at 300 meters all day long, anything much further is pushing it. Combat-type scope (3.4X C79A1 or 4X SUSAT) helps, but not by that much.

As for the .45ACP round, assuming you're talking about a solid tungsten round (an FMJ bulley is, by definition, not a single piece of solid metal), it's not going to penetrate body armor with a trauma plate - that's a low velocity round with a low ballsitic coefficient. It's doesn't do range or penetration well. At normal handgun range it'll penetrate the bodywork on a car, most interior walls, but nothing really solid. A standard 230-grain .45ACP FMJ round will barely dent 3/4" aluminum (in fact, of all the varied handguns I've tried, only a 7.62mm Tokarev comes close to penetrating - very close, in fact), and I very much doubt that a steel or tungsten cored round would do much better. Small and fast rounds penetrate, big slow ones don't.

A Neilson device (just a muzzle booster, really) applies to recoil-operated locked breech firearms only, which these days are pretty much only (most) pistols of 9mm Luger calibre and above. A smaller pistol is usually straight blowback with a fixed barrel, which aren't effected by the additional weight of a supressor anyways.
So conceivably, my marksman could equip himself with an Eastern Bloc pistol firing the 7.62mm Tokarev, construct his own rounds out of tungsten or some other high density or extremely hard metal, and be fairly confident in penetration? If so, my next question is accuracy.

What would you say is the most accurate and dependable modern pistol firing the 7.62mm Tokarev round, or is it strictly speaking a round one does not depend on for accuracy?

The Russian aspect is perfectly workable as the story has its roots in the Chechen War and this fits perfectly into the larger framework of the narrative.

What's more, what books would you gentlemen recommend I purchase to research the inner workings and functions of fire arms in detail, as well as the state of the modern fire arm?

Last edited by Pointy Sextant; 12-29-2008 at 08:29 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 01-01-2009, 09:44 PM
Nyles Nyles is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 917
Default

Well, the only two worth mentionning are the Tokarev TT-33 and the Czech vz.52. Of the two, the Tokarev is alot handier and (contrary to what you'll sometimes read on the net) stronger, but the vz.52 actually has a safety and tends to be more accurate. Of course neither is what you'd call modern.

They're plenty accurate, considering how they're made, but they won't compete with a modern gun.

You might want to check out theboxoftruth.com. There's alot of good articles there that'll explain what guns can and can't do, and there's a good article on the cz.52 in there as well.

Last edited by Nyles; 01-01-2009 at 09:46 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 01-03-2009, 06:37 AM
Ultraussie Ultraussie is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 10
Default

Dont watse your time with .22, get a bloody 9mm or something.
BTW, Rugers suck except for full auto Mini14
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 01-03-2009, 08:14 AM
Gunmaster45's Avatar
Gunmaster45 Gunmaster45 is offline
IMFDB Admin
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: New York, USA
Posts: 1,779
Default

Rugers don't suck. They are fine guns (my first handgun was a Ruger Mk II, a very fine plinker). I've been reading some of your comments, you definately have your opinions. Some of them are a little one sided though. Calibers differ from shooter to shooter. A .22 is good for short to medium ranges if a head shot is possible. Control is very easy, stopping power is poor (it is a great suppressed gun because of the quietness and short action). 9mm is the intermediate sized round. Fast but deadly. It isn't a "man stopper" because it can go straight through a man and all the kinetic energy is lost. Large rounds like 10mm and .45 ACP are cumbersome and some shooters can't control the recoil but the rounds are slow and stop in the target, maximizing stopping power (but knocking a man off his feet is pure BS). I think for an assassin, exotic rounds like 5.7x28mm seem interesting. They are great for body armor but suffer the same flaw as the 9mm. I'm a .45 man myself, but no round is perfect.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 01-03-2009, 09:36 PM
Nyles Nyles is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 917
Default

Have you ever actually shot a Mini-14? No offense to anyone who owns them, they make a decent truck gun, but it's just about the most inaccurate new rifle on the market today, and I've handled Chinese guns with better fit and finish. In fact the Mini-14 is just about the only bad firearm Ruger makes (as bad as the ergonomics on the P89 are, they sure do shoot).

Ruger .22s are great pistols - the Mk.III is basically indestructible. I was talking to a guy who owns a rental range and he told be they see 1000s of rounds a week with limited cleaning and he hasn't had one wear out yet.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 01-04-2009, 12:10 AM
Gunmaster45's Avatar
Gunmaster45 Gunmaster45 is offline
IMFDB Admin
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: New York, USA
Posts: 1,779
Default

I have one of the older style Ruger Ranch rifle Mini-14s, blued. I heard the older models had a weak bolt so I have some spares. I think they are a great shooting gun, although they can be a little inaccurate. As a home defense gun, accuracy can be over come when you have a few fully loaded pre-ban 40 round mags.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 01-04-2009, 12:38 AM
Pointy Sextant Pointy Sextant is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 15
Default

As of now in my research I've come across both the FN Five-Seven and the HK UCP. These pistols seem tailor made for my exact writing purposes based on my reading of their capabilities so far. Is this an accurate judgment? If so, then the weapons of the gun runners are my next question.

Primarily I would like to shy away from the usual Russian and Israeli firearms used by gangsters for my exotic gunrunners. I've found the Singaporean weapons to be interesting, as well as the latest generation firearms from Fabrique Nationale like the FN 2000. Seeing as these are all military weapons, how vast a conspiracy would I need to create to properly equip a small organiation of criminals and mercenaries with the latest military equipment from these divergent sources?

I'm also curious as to the small arms qualities of the XM25 Individual Airburst Weapon System. Not just its qualities as a simple grenade launcher, but as a varied munitions launcher and material delivery system.

I am also curious as to the material density, hardness, and flexibility required to resist the safe firing of a 9mm parabellum round. The concept of an actual gun capable of passing through airport scanning intrigues me, and it seems to me that you would have to build the entire assembly from an exotic polymer or ceramic as well as the bullets. What interests me is whether or not the construction of such a weapon is actually possible considering the fact that no one seems to have done it yet, and I really can't be the first person to come up with the idea along these lines.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 01-04-2009, 02:07 AM
MT2008's Avatar
MT2008 MT2008 is offline
IMFDB & Forum Admin
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,528
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pointy Sextant View Post
As of now in my research I've come across both the FN Five-Seven and the HK UCP. These pistols seem tailor made for my exact writing purposes based on my reading of their capabilities so far. Is this an accurate judgment? If so, then the weapons of the gun runners are my next question.
I would avoid having them use the H&K UCP, because it's not in production yet (to the best of my knowledge).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pointy Sextant View Post
Primarily I would like to shy away from the usual Russian and Israeli firearms used by gangsters for my exotic gunrunners. I've found the Singaporean weapons to be interesting, as well as the latest generation firearms from Fabrique Nationale like the FN 2000. Seeing as these are all military weapons, how vast a conspiracy would I need to create to properly equip a small organiation of criminals and mercenaries with the latest military equipment from these divergent sources?
I don't think you'd need much of a "conspiracy" at all. The FN Five-Seven and semi-automatic versions of the F2000 rifle and P90 submachine gun can be purchased at gun stores in the U.S. (the FS2000s and PS90s could possibly be converted to full-auto, assuming your gunrunners had well-trained armorers able to do the conversion work for them).

There are already drug cartels in Mexico whose gunmen have acquired these weapons by having cousins or girlfriends in Texas buy them and then smuggle them across the border. When I was an intern at Stratfor, in fact, I did some research on this as part of an article that was published in one of the Mexico security briefs.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 01-17-2009, 02:42 AM
Pointy Sextant Pointy Sextant is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 15
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MT2008 View Post
I would avoid having them use the H&K UCP, because it's not in production yet (to the best of my knowledge).
I'm willing to place this in the future a few years, I was already planning on including the XM25.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MT2008 View Post
I don't think you'd need much of a "conspiracy" at all. The FN Five-Seven and semi-automatic versions of the F2000 rifle and P90 submachine gun can be purchased at gun stores in the U.S. (the FS2000s and PS90s could possibly be converted to full-auto, assuming your gunrunners had well-trained armorers able to do the conversion work for them).

There are already drug cartels in Mexico whose gunmen have acquired these weapons by having cousins or girlfriends in Texas buy them and then smuggle them across the border. When I was an intern at Stratfor, in fact, I did some research on this as part of an article that was published in one of the Mexico security briefs.
But what about the availability of the Singaporean weapons? And for clarities sake, the assassin and the gang of gunrunners of mercenaries are two separate groups. The assassin is not someone I'm worried about explaining getting firearms to, but I want to be realistic about how I put the weapons in the hands of the syndicate.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 01-17-2009, 03:44 AM
MT2008's Avatar
MT2008 MT2008 is offline
IMFDB & Forum Admin
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,528
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pointy Sextant View Post
I'm willing to place this in the future a few years, I was already planning on including the XM25.
Fair enough, although personally, I'm of the opinion that the 4.6x30mm is basically shit compared to the 5.7x28mm used by FN's weapons. Part of the reason the UCP is so far behind schedule is because of the relatively disappointing reception that the MP7 has received, and the reason for that is because many LE departments think the 4.6x30 is a joke.

I'm also doubtful the XM25 will ever go into production, let alone be adopted. Certainly not in a few years. H&K has a terrible track record when it comes to U.S. military contracts. Chances are, the XM25 is going to go the way of nearly every weapon that H&K has submitted to the DoD for testing...to the grave.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pointy Sextant View Post
But what about the availability of the Singaporean weapons?
Which ones do you mean specifically? I'm guessing the SAR-21 and Ultimax machine gun? Well, the simplest answer is...there are always corrupt military and law enforcement officers willing to line their pockets by selling weaponry. Especially in an authoritarian country like Singapore.

Then there's the fact that Singapore has sold small arms to governments that are currently engaged in wars or which would not be likely to do a good job accounting for weapons. For instance, the Sri Lankan Army is currently engaged in a war with the rebel Tamil Tiger (LTTE) organization, though they seem to be close to winning. The SLA's special forces use Singaporean weapons in minor numbers, including the SAR-21 and Ultimax.

If I were writing your book, I would say it's possible that the LTTE could have captured some of these weapons from the SLA, and kept them in their arms caches. The fact that the Sri Lankan Civil War is drawing to a close (as we speak) means that a few years in the future, the LTTE could be demobilizing and participating in a peace process to gain legitimacy as a political party in Sri Lanka. Seeing as the organization has 10,000+ fighters, that's a lot of weaponry they'd have left over. So conceivably, certain Tigers might sell some of the LTTE's weapons stocks on the black market. Including the SAR-21s and Ultimax LMGs.

But whatever. I'm not a novelist.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 04:34 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.