imfdb.org  

Go Back   imfdb.org > The Forum > Just Guns

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #61  
Old 04-19-2018, 01:51 AM
funkychinaman's Avatar
funkychinaman funkychinaman is offline
IMFDB & Forum Admin
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Bucks County, PA
Posts: 2,472
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mazryonh View Post
The process of something being admitted or barred from becoming a NATO standard is a bit fuzzy. The US Armed Forces went with 5.56mm NATO in the Vietnam War long before it became a NATO standard in 1980. There was also the indefinite postponement of 5.7x28mm becoming a NATO standard when the Germans complained about their 4.6x30mm round being left out.

The infrastructure for widespread 10mm Auto manufacturing already exists, in the form of .40 S&W manufacturing lines (because .40 S&W cases are just 3mm shorter than 10mm Auto cases). Furthermore, using 10mm Auto in an compact-SMG-type (perhaps with an MP7-style layout) platform instead of 5.56mm SBRs can save money and soldiers' hearing, because SBRs waste a lot of powder in the casings with every shot, and SMGs are much easier to suppress efficiently from short barrels than SBRs, and SMGs are also quieter than SBRs when unsuppressed.

I still think it would be interesting if SIG-Sauer puts out a 10mm version of their M17 and M18 handguns and some gun vlogger tests it alongside the 9x19mm versions. If it comes down to the handgun or SMG, at least the ballistic performance and barrier-blind performance of the 10mm Auto over the 9mm Para will mean that the soldier with that handgun or SMG will be that much more capable.
SOCOM has tremendous leeway when it comes to weapons selection, and they're happy with 9mm and .45 ACP.
__________________
"Me fail English? That's unpossible!"
Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old 04-19-2018, 11:21 PM
Spartan198's Avatar
Spartan198 Spartan198 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: The failed state of California
Posts: 2,060
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mazryonh View Post
The US Armed Forces went with 5.56mm NATO in the Vietnam War long before it became a NATO standard in 1980.
Same caliber, but different rounds. That was the M193 series. The round chosen for NATO standardization was the SS109/M855.
__________________
"The gun has played a critical role in history. An invention which has been praised and denounced... served hero and villain alike... and carries with it moral responsibility. To understand the gun is to better understand history."

“What is morality in any given time or place? It is what the majority then and there happen to like, and immorality is what they dislike.” - Alfred North Whitehead
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 04-20-2018, 12:48 PM
Evil Tim's Avatar
Evil Tim Evil Tim is offline
IMFDB & Forum Admin
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: The surface of the sun
Posts: 737
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mazryonh View Post
I still think it would be interesting if SIG-Sauer puts out a 10mm version of their M17 and M18 handguns and some gun vlogger tests it alongside the 9x19mm versions. If it comes down to the handgun or SMG, at least the ballistic performance and barrier-blind performance of the 10mm Auto over the 9mm Para will mean that the soldier with that handgun or SMG will be that much more capable.
The main issue is that 10mm Auto has a really bad reputation in military / LE because none of the early guns that fired it worked properly and a lot of the early ammo was faulty.
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old 04-21-2018, 03:33 AM
Excalibur's Avatar
Excalibur Excalibur is offline
IMFDB Admin
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 3,748
Send a message via AIM to Excalibur Send a message via MSN to Excalibur Send a message via Yahoo to Excalibur
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil Tim View Post
The main issue is that 10mm Auto has a really bad reputation in military / LE because none of the early guns that fired it worked properly and a lot of the early ammo was faulty.
I thought the primary reason for not adopting the 10mm was because women and some "weak" men can't handle the recoil, so they then took some powder out and then got the bright idea of creating the .40 S&W
__________________

"There's a fine line between not listening and not caring...I like to think I walk that line everyday of my life."

Blessed be the LORD, my rock, Who trains my hands for war, And my fingers for battle
Psalm 144:1

“It is always wrong to use force, unless it is more wrong not to.”
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old 04-21-2018, 04:59 AM
Mazryonh Mazryonh is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 261
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by funkychinaman View Post
SOCOM has tremendous leeway when it comes to weapons selection, and they're happy with 9mm and .45 ACP.
I don't know anything about SOCOM or whether they've heard about or even given 10mm Auto handguns/SMGs a fair shake.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spartan198 View Post
Same caliber, but different rounds. That was the M193 series. The round chosen for NATO standardization was the SS109/M855.
They still used 5.56x45mm for a long time before it became a NATO standard. Essentially they went it alone and waited for the other NATO members to follow suit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil Tim View Post
The main issue is that 10mm Auto has a really bad reputation in military / LE because none of the early guns that fired it worked properly and a lot of the early ammo was faulty.
You could say the same about the early-model M16s and the early 5.56x45mm combat loadings. I'd say that the 10mm has already proven itself quite a bit, just not in many well-known professional environments. The FBI HRT still uses the MP5/10, for instance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Excalibur View Post
I thought the primary reason for not adopting the 10mm was because women and some "weak" men can't handle the recoil, so they then took some powder out and then got the bright idea of creating the .40 S&W
That was the case for the FBI. Had things been a little different, such as if the 10mm had been put into a Mini-Uzi-type platform, or even a variant of the M2 Carbine, or an MP5K-PDW, for use as a PDW or even compact duty weapon for a Law Enforcement Agency, then it would have been much more controllable since those platforms have more points of contact than handguns.

A lot of people don't want to take the effort to master the weapons they're issued. Budget issues also don't help since weapon qualifications are usually not very often either. If those women and "weak" men made some honest efforts, more of them might have been able to handle 10mm handguns. New platforms like the B&T Universal Service Weapon would definitely help though.
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 04-21-2018, 06:56 AM
Evil Tim's Avatar
Evil Tim Evil Tim is offline
IMFDB & Forum Admin
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: The surface of the sun
Posts: 737
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mazryonh View Post
You could say the same about the early-model M16s and the early 5.56x45mm combat loadings.
You could indeed, but the Army knew damn well they weren't going to get another new rifle after the M14 had the shortest service life of any standard-issue rifle in US history, so they were going to have to make it work. If the FBI had bought a million 10mm Auto guns rather than a handful you'd have seen the same thing, but they didn't.
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 04-21-2018, 02:33 PM
funkychinaman's Avatar
funkychinaman funkychinaman is offline
IMFDB & Forum Admin
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Bucks County, PA
Posts: 2,472
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mazryonh View Post
I don't know anything about SOCOM or whether they've heard about or even given 10mm Auto handguns/SMGs a fair shake.
That's fair. I'm sure one day they'll take a minute to evaluate a cartridge that's been available for over thirty years.

I think it's safe to assume they've heard about it. I'm sure someone in SOCOM has seen an episode of Miami Vice or read a firearms publication since 1983.
__________________
"Me fail English? That's unpossible!"
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 04-21-2018, 02:43 PM
Excalibur's Avatar
Excalibur Excalibur is offline
IMFDB Admin
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 3,748
Send a message via AIM to Excalibur Send a message via MSN to Excalibur Send a message via Yahoo to Excalibur
Default

I thought the FBI HRT retired the MP5/10 because it was overpowered for a platform that was never designed for it
__________________

"There's a fine line between not listening and not caring...I like to think I walk that line everyday of my life."

Blessed be the LORD, my rock, Who trains my hands for war, And my fingers for battle
Psalm 144:1

“It is always wrong to use force, unless it is more wrong not to.”
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old 04-25-2018, 03:20 AM
Mazryonh Mazryonh is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 261
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by funkychinaman View Post
That's fair. I'm sure one day they'll take a minute to evaluate a cartridge that's been available for over thirty years.

I think it's safe to assume they've heard about it. I'm sure someone in SOCOM has seen an episode of Miami Vice or read a firearms publication since 1983.
There's no need to be sarcastic. But given the examples you brought up, hasn't the MP5 in 9mm had a long history among the special forces? If the MP5/10 was more widely available I think they'd see it as a straight upgrade. The advantages are substantial and the infrastructure is already there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Excalibur View Post
I thought the FBI HRT retired the MP5/10 because it was overpowered for a platform that was never designed for it
Wasn't there a variant of the HK G3 battle rifle (the base platform for the MP5) that used 5.56mm NATO, called the HK33? I think it's clear that the G3 platform could handle the pressures of the 10mm, if the right variant of the G3 was made.

Last edited by Mazryonh; 04-25-2018 at 03:23 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old 04-25-2018, 04:15 AM
Evil Tim's Avatar
Evil Tim Evil Tim is offline
IMFDB & Forum Admin
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: The surface of the sun
Posts: 737
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mazryonh View Post
There's no need to be sarcastic. But given the examples you brought up, hasn't the MP5 in 9mm had a long history among the special forces? If the MP5/10 was more widely available I think they'd see it as a straight upgrade. The advantages are substantial and the infrastructure is already there.
Actually most of the advantages of 9mm in SF and police use are in things like not penetrating walls as much, they don't necessarily want a more powerful round for the work they do with subguns. Also 10mm rounds are over twice as expensive as 9mm.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 09:21 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.