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Old 07-01-2012, 07:55 PM
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Default Eligibility of guns for their own pages

Note that the rules state:
Quote:
Though we do list a variety of weapons in the individual movie/TV/anime/Videogame pages, that's just for the sake of being 100% complete for that page. With the exception of grenades (which we do allow), the only weapons which merit an individual page in the GUNS Category are any individual or crew served weapon that fires in a DIRECT FIRE role. Thus an RPG-7 qualifies as does an M134 Minigun. A grenade launcher is also used in the direct fire role. Though a flamethrower is not a firearm, it fires it's payload in a direct fire role (i.e. aimed directly line of sight at the item/person to be destroyed). What we do not allow are weapons which are too large to be operated by either an individual or small crew or are used primarily as indirect fire delivery systems. This disqualifies fuel air bombs, all air dropped bombs, mortars, artillery, IEDs, most explosive ordnance (other than a commonly issued grenade), cruise missiles, or the guns on a Naval battleship. Even the M230 Chain Gun has been used by crews in direct fire roles (not mounted on a helicopter nose) (at least one AC-130 Spectre Gunship has fired an M230 from a side firing platform, manned by the aircraft's gunners). This rule applies to individual pages in the Guns Category. Feel free to identify ANY military weapons system that you can verify on the movie or television pages. The pages have "Gun Platform" sections just for that purpose, which allows us to denote tactical military vehicles, boats or aircraft which possess a primary (and sometimes secondary) offensive armament.
I've noticed that a Mod has (in CIA parlance) gone off the reservation. I just want some sort of agreement whether the nose cannons on fighter planes or the main big guns on tanks comply or not.

I believe they do not. In the case of aircraft mounted nose cannons, 99.99% of them belong to the aircraft, which is usually loaned or borrowed from the military. In the case of civilian ownership of military aircraft, (like MIG-15s, etc.) the cannons are removed. No Movie armory uses them or owns them. I believe they fall into the 'gun platform' category and thus only get listed on the individual VG or anime pages. We are not here to document what the military is already known to have mounted on their planes. Any edition of Jane's all the worlds aircraft will already have that info.

Secondary tank guns. I support pages for the Goryunov SG-43 Machine Gun http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Goryunov_SG-43_Machine_Gun or other large belt fed MGs because they can be removed from the tank or at least be used while NOT being enclosed in a tank. If the gun only appears as an integral part of the tank, then it does not qualify, it becomes a 'gun platform' addition again. If a small crew of SOLDIERS cannot use it as a crew served weapon, independent of the vehicle, it does not qualify.

Thoughts?
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Old 07-01-2012, 08:37 PM
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I agree, though I remember in the VERY early days of this website that there was a sister website called internet movie MILITARY VEHICLES database that linked to/from this website. If we still had that website active then this wouldn't be an issue as it would be very clear where tank weapons and aircraft weapons would lie under.
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Old 07-01-2012, 10:36 PM
commando552 commando552 is offline
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I think it is probably best not to have individual pages for all of the tank and aircraft cannons out there, for the reasons you stated, but also the fact that particularly with aircraft you tend not to actually see the gun, and the ID's are purely based on the presumption that it is there. However, if it is allowed to list these guns on the media page without a gun page to link to, might it be an idea to have a page where the pictures are stored? For example, have a page for "Armored Vehicle Armaments" or something like that where all the images are stored. Otherwise there will probably be the situation where space is being wasted with multiple images for the same gun. You could do a search to find previous appearances to reuse the same image, but it is a bit of a hassle particularly when you bear in mind the different nomenclature and position of dashes and slashes that comes with weapons like this.
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Old 07-02-2012, 05:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by commando552 View Post
I think it is probably best not to have individual pages for all of the tank and aircraft cannons out there, for the reasons you stated, but also the fact that particularly with aircraft you tend not to actually see the gun, and the ID's are purely based on the presumption that it is there.
That is similar to the tactic used by a relatively new member (whose name will go unmentioned) . The problem with the practice of "If it is supposed to be there, IMFDB will list it as being there", is that in entertainment media, substitutions happen all the time. Also IF something appears in either film or tv, there is no guarantee that the weapon is not a fantasy mockup. I remember an old B&W movie where the F86 jet footage was actually stock footage of test flights of an unarmed model (done in the testing grounds of the Western U.S.) So all the 'battle' scenes took place with a plane with no guns. LOL.

Now in the world of Video games, the guns MAY be specifically identified, but even that doesn't make it qualify (for the reasons I listed above).

The only issue is that even if the pages are well done AND accurate, they're still of an item which we don't recognize as qualifying for IMFDB. And we HAVE to limit the scope of IMFDB. New members are just too clever as to how they will twist and distort the intent of the rules and push the envelope as to what wacky page they will try to make.

I do like the idea of a GUN PLATFORM page which lists all AIR COMBAT armament on the same page and all ARMORED VEHICLE COMBAT armament (like the 155mm guns) so that the identified weapons have a place to link to.

Thoughts?
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Old 07-02-2012, 07:14 PM
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I think it should also be mentioned that a lot of aircraft in modern films (like Pearl Harbor or Red Tails) are CGI, so their guns are completely CGI as well.

Even making a separate Aircraft Cannon and Tank Cannon page might give people the wrong idea. I'm okay with just mentioning it on the movie/tv/VG/anime page itself.
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Old 07-08-2012, 12:47 PM
Jcordell Jcordell is offline
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I concur. Lets not get carried away.
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Old 07-25-2012, 07:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MoviePropMaster2008 View Post
I do like the idea of a GUN PLATFORM page which lists all AIR COMBAT armament on the same page and all ARMORED VEHICLE COMBAT armament (like the 155mm guns) so that the identified weapons have a place to link to.

Thoughts?
Yeah, I've thought it would be a good idea to have an "other weapons" page or page group for collecting images of weapons that don't qualify for their own pages (eg specific types of manufactured explosive charge*, artillery, any distinctive rockets / missiles / bombs that have a major role in the proceedings like that bomb in Rambo). That way they're not just floating around unlinked.

While I think such a page could feature lists just for the sake of two-way linking, I don't think it would be good to lay it out like a standard gun page. Maybe just movie / year / notes.

It's definately worth identifying these weapons if they appear since the chances of anyone setting up an Internet Movie Artillery Database are basically nil. I think individual gun pages would probably stop around FlaK 88 level (ie large, distinct direct fire weapons weapons that are quite likely to be real rather than fabrications or CGI), though before I make *that* page I need to do more researching into the barrel and carriage variants and get some images of each.

*Meaning those with distinct markings that are produced to pattern for a military force, rather than Looney Tunes sticks of dynamite. I know those don't qualify for anything but "sake of completeness" in games and not at all in movies.
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Old 07-09-2013, 04:31 PM
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I just want a clarification:

Unless the actor is actually piloting an aircraft, aircraft cannons don't count on actor pages?
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Old 07-09-2013, 07:22 PM
commando552 commando552 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by funkychinaman View Post
I just want a clarification:

Unless the actor is actually piloting an aircraft, aircraft cannons don't count on actor pages?
I wouldn't have thought they would even count then. It's not like they are actually handling the weapon, they are just pressing a button. If someone pushes a button in the CIC of a carrier you wouldn't say they were firing a Vulcan cannon. Also, I doubt that there has ever been anything where the actor portraying the pilot is actually controlling the weapon. Most of the time the cockpit shots would be filmed in a mock up or in a grounded fighter, whereas aerial shots of it firing (assuming it isn't CG) would be a professional pilot flying the plane, most likely with any firing effects added in later. Do you have an example of one that you think might be eligible?
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Old 07-09-2013, 07:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by commando552 View Post
I wouldn't have thought they would even count then. It's not like they are actually handling the weapon, they are just pressing a button. If someone pushes a button in the CIC of a carrier you wouldn't say they were firing a Vulcan cannon. Also, I doubt that there has ever been anything where the actor portraying the pilot is actually controlling the weapon. Most of the time the cockpit shots would be filmed in a mock up or in a grounded fighter, whereas aerial shots of it firing (assuming it isn't CG) would be a professional pilot flying the plane, most likely with any firing effects added in later. Do you have an example of one that you think might be eligible?
Not in a fighter. I just wanted to be sure.

The only exception to aircraft cannons that I can think of is if someone was loading the cannons on an AC-130.
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