DEVGRU's new rifle

[Spartan198]

There seems to be little info on it out there aside from a thread on the DEVTSIX airsoft forum and a couple non-English sites (not even TFB has reported on it yet). They were seen running PSD for Gen. Austin Miller in Kabul last July with one of the new carbines visible, from which a basic configuration was IDed:

*Noveske NSR M-LOK 9" handguard
*Dead Air Sandman-S suppressor
*Magpul MOE SL-K stock
*Magpul MVG and M-LOK AFG foregrips
*Nightforce ATACR 1-8x24 LPVO
*Insight Next Generation Aiming Laser which seems to have received the designation LA-23/PEQ

The story, apparently, is that they tested 8.5" and 10.5" uppers in .300 BLK, settled on the 10.5", then decided to ditch the 416s and go Noveske across the board and have had them for two years now. Here are the clearest and closest images of the (actual) new rifles I can find so far.

[MT2008]

If these are really .300 Blackout guns, I wonder what that will do for the caliber's popularity and further adoption within the military? The fact that they've gone back to direct impingement guns after helping to popularize the HK416 should also be the final nail in the coffin for those who believe that piston ARs are the future (what a change from 10 years ago!)

Aside from the NSR rails, those upper receivers are also definitely Noveske Gen III billet uppers. On the other hand, the LRGs still appear to be standard forged lowers, not the Noveske Gen III billet lowers (which have a distinct flared magwell), so it seems clear that they didn't buy complete guns from Noveske. Also, most of the pics I've seen on message boards show that the blasters still have the HK416-style pistol grips or the Hogue rubber grips that DEVGRU has been known to use on their 416s. If I had to guess, the most likely explanation here is that DEV purchased complete Noveske Gen III 10.5" Shorty URGs and then retrofitted them to their existing LRGs (the same ones that used to host their 416 URGs).

Also: The Insight NGAL doesn't seem to be standard yet - most of the pics I've seen show carbines fitted with the existing AN/PEQ-15s. As for optics: The Nightforce ATACR doesn't seem to be standard yet, either; most of them are still using either the EOTech EXPS3-0 or Aimpoint Micro T-2s on ScalarWorks mounts.

[Spartan198]

Originally Posted by MT2008

If these are really .300 Blackout guns, I wonder what that will do for the caliber's popularity and further adoption within the military?

Actually, the Noveskes are being procured in both .300 BLK and 5.56. That's what I meant when I said they were going Noveske across the board, which I admit I wasn't clear on. The two platforms are cheaper to maintain as a whole because the only thing that's different is the barrel.

But on the topic of .300 BKL in the US military, my sources have told me that it's being employed in situations where subguns like the MP5SD and MP7 previously would have been and that those platforms are in the process of being phased out.

The fact that they've gone back to direct impingement guns after helping to popularize the HK416 should also be the final nail in the coffin for those who believe that piston ARs are the future (what a change from 10 years ago!)

The DI system has seen continuous modification and improvement over the last 20 years and today runs pretty much on par with piston systems. But the 416 still for the moment has a chance at sticking around as the 416A5 is one of the carbines currently being tested by CAG, with the other two I've heard being an MCX variant and, allegedly, the Knight's SR-16 (there seems to be some contention on the latter, though).

Aside from the NSR rails, those upper receivers are also definitely Noveske Gen III billet uppers. On the other hand, the LRGs still appear to be standard forged lowers, not the Noveske Gen III billet lowers (which have a distinct flared magwell), so it seems clear that they didn't buy complete guns from Noveske. Also, most of the pics I've seen on message boards show that the blasters still have the HK416-style pistol grips or the Hogue rubber grips that DEVGRU has been known to use on their 416s. If I had to guess, the most likely explanation here is that DEV purchased complete Noveske Gen III 10.5" Shorty URGs and then retrofitted them to their existing LRGs (the same ones that used to host their 416 URGs).

None of the Noveskes I've seen in pics were on 416 lowers.

Also: The Insight NGAL doesn't seem to be standard yet - most of the pics I've seen show carbines fitted with the existing AN/PEQ-15s.

The NGAL seems to only be in use with JSOC and hasn't yet filtered down into the rest of SOCOM.

As for optics: The Nightforce ATACR doesn't seem to be standard yet, either; most of them are still using either the EOTech EXPS3-0 or Aimpoint Micro T-2s on ScalarWorks mounts.

Dedicated CQB optics will always have a place. I doubt the ATACR will replace everything, especially considering how much gear these members of these units buy out of their own pocket. It will just be another tool in the toolbox, much like how the SCAR ended up when it turnout to not be the "M4 killer" some thought (wanted?) it to be.

[MT2008]

Originally Posted by Spartan198

Actually, the Noveskes are being procured in both .300 BLK and 5.56. That's what I meant when I said they were going Noveske across the board, which I admit I wasn't clear on. The two platforms are cheaper to maintain as a whole because the only thing that's different is the barrel.

But on the topic of .300 BKL in the US military, my sources have told me that it's being employed in situations where subguns like the MP5SD and MP7 previously would have been and that those platforms are in the process of being phased out.

Ah, gotcha. And yeah, I'm not surprised. If DEVGRU still has any 14.5" guns, for example, those are almost surely going to be 5.56 guns, not .300 BLK (though my impression is that 10.5" weapons have always been their go-tos for most missions).

Originally Posted by Spartan198

The DI system has seen continuous modification and improvement over the last 20 years and today runs pretty much on par with piston systems. But the 416 still for the moment has a chance at sticking around as the 416A5 is one of the carbines currently being tested by CAG, with the other two I've heard being an MCX variant and, allegedly, the Knight's SR-16 (there seems to be some contention on the latter, though).

Agree, it's never fair to compare DI guns of 20 years ago to the DI guns of today - too much has changed (especially RE gas tube length, gas block design, barrel profiles, buffers, etc.)

I don't expect piston guns to go away completely - and certainly, piston guns have seen just as much improvement in the last 15 years (when the HK416 was first fielded) as the DI guns. I do think that so long as DI guns maintain a weight advantage, that's likely to be a decisive factor. But still, the piston ARs have shown that they have longevity, so they'll probably still be around, even if they're not likely to dominate the market (as folks used to predict 10-15 years ago).

Originally Posted by Spartan198

None of the Noveskes I've seen in pics were on 416 lowers.

I'm not sure all of DEV's 416s were built on 416 lowers, either. Some of them may have been 416 URGs on existing Colt M4 lowers. Then again, maybe they're just re-using the same pistol grips on newer lowers because that's what their operators prefer. (Side note: Not sure why they like Hogue grips; it was a great design 20-25 years ago compared to a standard A2 grip, but too many AR makers have introduced better grips since.)

Originally Posted by Spartan198

The NGAL seems to only be in use with JSOC and hasn't yet filtered down into the rest of SOCOM.

I meant that I don't think it's become standardized even in DEVGRU, either. Most of the pics of DEVGRU guys that I've seen with their new carbines show them still using PEQ-15s/LA-5s.

Originally Posted by Spartan198

Dedicated CQB optics will always have a place. I doubt the ATACR will replace everything, especially considering how much gear these members of these units buy out of their own pocket. It will just be another tool in the toolbox, much like how the SCAR ended up when it turnout to not be the "M4 killer" some thought (wanted?) it to be.

Agreed.