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  #21  
Old 09-15-2009, 04:26 PM
Ace Oliveira Ace Oliveira is offline
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The thing is, there are palestinians that want peace. But because of the incredibly shitty education and Hamas shoving propaganda up people's asses, most palestinians hate Israel. The nationalistic assholes in Israel do almost the same thing. Israel has better education but nationalistic churches keep shoving "Greater Israel" bullshit down children's throats. The Israeli government did the right thing after the Munich Massacre. Yes, they fucked up in the Lillehammer affair but they assassinated the terrorists and did a decent job. They didn't bomb the shit of Palestine like they do now. Even though i actually think the Israeli government did actually bom Palestine but i'm not sure. Anyway, what we have there in Israel is a good old Religious War with some race war thrown in for good measure. While the Hamas does attack Israel, they do that because their interpretation of the Qur'an is that all jews must be destroyed and Israel is Muslim Territory. The Israelis say that because they are attacked, they must attack which makes sense, however nationalistic assholes think the Palestinian territory is Jewish so they gotta take the place back and make it all Israel.

Anyway, the thing is, When the palestinians change, the Israelis should probably back down a little. The thing is that winning the minds of the Palestinians would be hard. It would take years and Israeli presidentional administrations would change and all that. The Israeli government is taking the easy route of bombing the living shit outta Palestine with no regard for civilian casualities. And when most Israeli soldiers are conscripts and a lot of them hate Palestine because they are spoon feed their nationalistic version of the Jewish holy book, they are going to waste every Palestinian they see. I think what should happen is that there should be a line on the Israeli and Palestinian border. Guarded by Jewish friendly arab countries on the Palestinian side and neutral western countries on the Israeli side. Not using the UN because they are probably going to fuck it up one way or the other. The Israelis should also step up to Israeli churches that keep throwing hate speech about Arabs and make the education better, when they fix that, then they should move on to the Palestinians.

The Arab-Israeli line would work like this, the Liberal Arabs build schools and all that hearts and minds shit, the schools would pretty much be liberal as hell and teach the Palestinian kids to be friends with Israelis. If any Hamas cocksucker tries to start shit with the Israelis or get caugh doing something illegal, like smuggle weapons and all that, gets fucking arrested and thrown to the Israelis. If they try to attack the Arabian guards with lethal weapons, they get fucking blown away. The Israeli side guards just keep doing Military Police work. Except they don't let any Israeli get to the Palestinian side if they intent on living there permately (Sorry for the bad english) or do anything illegal. if any Israeli gets caught doing something bad for the Palestinians then they get arrested and thrown to the Israeli courts. The Western guards build buildings for the Israeli settlers when they finally get thrown out of their beloved little homes in Palestinian territory. That's pretty much it.
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  #22  
Old 09-15-2009, 08:00 PM
Nyles Nyles is offline
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Originally Posted by Rockwolf66 View Post

Any wonder why i like the sight of shot up blue helmets?
Ok, I have to say something about that. I'm not a fan of the UN, but what the fuck? That's no different from saying you hope US soldiers get killed. I have plenty of friends who've gone on UN missions and worn the blue helmet, and guess what, US troops do too. I'm sorry, but saying you hope any soldiers get killed on a deployment they didn't chose makes you no better than the most radical leftist.
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  #23  
Old 09-16-2009, 02:10 AM
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MT2008 MT2008 is offline
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Originally Posted by Nyles View Post
Ok, I have to say something about that. I'm not a fan of the UN, but what the fuck? That's no different from saying you hope US soldiers get killed. I have plenty of friends who've gone on UN missions and worn the blue helmet, and guess what, US troops do too. I'm sorry, but saying you hope any soldiers get killed on a deployment they didn't chose makes you no better than the most radical leftist.
Hmmm, I missed this earlier, but yeah, you are correct. Cheering on troops that serve in the UN getting killed, especially when they're from one's own country, is highly inappropriate.

That being said, I think Rockwolf is mostly referring to the fact that there are many UN "peacekeepers" who represent Third World dictatorships and kleptocraciess, and often they're just as thuggish as the rebel groups that they're supposed to be policing.
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  #24  
Old 09-16-2009, 02:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Ace Oliveira View Post
The thing is, there are palestinians that want peace.
Very few of them, I'm afraid. Moderate Palestinians are few and far in between.

I do agree with you that there are many unsavory elements on the Israeli side (those hardcore ultra-religious settlers creep me out to no end, plus they're obviously not helping). But even if the Israelis behaved absolutely perfectly, I still doubt there would be peace. Antisemitism and a love of martyrdom aren't a problem merely because of Hamas' propaganda; they exist because many Palestinians hold those attitudes, always have and always will. Are you so quick to forget that the Palestinians actually tried to ally with the Nazis in World War II, before Israel existed?

Personally, I think the only thing Israel can do is just kick out the Palestinians, especially in Gaza. They were offered a perfectly reasonable deal and chose to reject it in favor of more war and more bloodshed. They deserve to suffer the consequences.
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  #25  
Old 09-16-2009, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by MT2008 View Post
Hmmm, I missed this earlier, but yeah, you are correct. Cheering on troops that serve in the UN getting killed, especially when they're from one's own country, is highly inappropriate.

That being said, I think Rockwolf is mostly referring to the fact that there are many UN "peacekeepers" who represent Third World dictatorships and kleptocraciess, and often they're just as thuggish as the rebel groups that they're supposed to be policing.

You mean like having radio conversations on an open frequency to a murderous rebel group to discus giving the country to them for blood diamonds. Or how about turning what to us westerners are underage girls into sexual slaves. Frankly the UN's track record is extremely bad when it comes to actually stopping a conflict and working towards peace. You have human rights abusers on the security councle. It's like letting a bunch of gangsters chair the local police oversight commitee.
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  #26  
Old 09-22-2009, 05:10 PM
Ace Oliveira Ace Oliveira is offline
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Originally Posted by MT2008 View Post
Very few of them, I'm afraid. Moderate Palestinians are few and far in between.

I do agree with you that there are many unsavory elements on the Israeli side (those hardcore ultra-religious settlers creep me out to no end, plus they're obviously not helping). But even if the Israelis behaved absolutely perfectly, I still doubt there would be peace. Antisemitism and a love of martyrdom aren't a problem merely because of Hamas' propaganda; they exist because many Palestinians hold those attitudes, always have and always will. Are you so quick to forget that the Palestinians actually tried to ally with the Nazis in World War II, before Israel existed?

Personally, I think the only thing Israel can do is just kick out the Palestinians, especially in Gaza. They were offered a perfectly reasonable deal and chose to reject it in favor of more war and more bloodshed. They deserve to suffer the consequences.
A good solution would be to build a country just for the Palestinians. Far from Israel. That would take decades though.
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  #27  
Old 09-22-2009, 07:43 PM
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AdAstra2009 AdAstra2009 is offline
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A good solution would be to build a country just for the Palestinians. Far from Israel. That would take decades though.
But the thing is that's not want the Palestinians want, they want all of Israel.
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  #28  
Old 09-22-2009, 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Ace Oliveira View Post
A good solution would be to build a country just for the Palestinians. Far from Israel. That would take decades though.
Why do the Palestinians deserve ANY country? Isn't it pretty obvious that Arabs aren't capable of building countries that are prosperous and democratic? Why do we need another Arab country that will be either (A.) a secular autocracy, or (B.) an Islamic fascist state? There are already enough of those in the Middle East.

I think the only future for the Palestinians is to give Gaza back to Egypt, and the West Bank to Jordan, and be done with it. And the latter part is where, I admit, the ultranationalist Israeli settlers would prove to be as much of a nuisance as the Pals themselves. That, and the fact that the other Arabs (for all of their rhetorical posturing) hate the Palestinians about as much as the Israelis do.
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  #29  
Old 09-26-2009, 05:41 PM
Ace Oliveira Ace Oliveira is offline
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Well, Giving Palestine back to Egypt and Jordan seems like a good idea. The problem is there is four million people in there. And if Palestine becomes Jordan and Egypt, what the hell do you think the palestinian extremists are going to do? They are going to start fucking up Jordan and Egypt. They will want independence because they want to go out and fight the Israelis once more.

And for the democratic arab countries. There is Jordan. It's not democratic but the King did say he wants Jordan to be a Democratic country. He took some steps towards democracy. Small steps but steps none the less. It has awesome liberal heads of state. There are problems in the country such as the lack of water and lack of oil but their Nuclear powerplants the Jordanian government is building would help with those problems.

If the protesters in Iran can finally top the Ayatollah and Dinner Jacket, then we would have Iran too.
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  #30  
Old 09-26-2009, 08:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Ace Oliveira View Post
Well, Giving Palestine back to Egypt and Jordan seems like a good idea. The problem is there is four million people in there. And if Palestine becomes Jordan and Egypt, what the hell do you think the palestinian extremists are going to do? They are going to start fucking up Jordan and Egypt. They will want independence because they want to go out and fight the Israelis once more.
The Palestinians will never fuck up Jordan or Egypt, for the simple fact that if they act up, both countries will gladly Black September the Pals' asses into submission. Unlike the Israelis, Arab countries almost never make peace deals with resistance groups within their borders...they simply clamp down upon them ruthlessly, and genocide the populations if the resistance gains popular support.

And as cold as it may sound, I really could care less if that's what happens to the Palestinians. I just can't bring myself to feel a whole lot of sympathy for them, no matter how much I might occasionally find the Israelis detestable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace Oliveira View Post
And for the democratic arab countries. There is Jordan. It's not democratic but the King did say he wants Jordan to be a Democratic country. He took some steps towards democracy. Small steps but steps none the less. It has awesome liberal heads of state. There are problems in the country such as the lack of water and lack of oil but their Nuclear powerplants the Jordanian government is building would help with those problems.
Jordan is way, WAY away from being a democracy. It is a secular monarchy with a minor facade of democracy laid out on top. If Jordan is the best case you can cite for Arab democracy, you've got a serious problem.

The norm in the Arab world has been gangsters like Saddam and Qaddafi, and that is why I really don't think we need any more Arab countries. Their record doesn't lie. Those people are not capable of building democratic, free societies. They won't be until they (A.) become much more secular, (B.) learn how to educate themselves and build functioning societies, and (C.) stop blaming everyone else (meaning, America and Israel) for their problems.

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Originally Posted by Ace Oliveira View Post
If the protesters in Iran can finally top the Ayatollah and Dinner Jacket, then we would have Iran too.
...which, unfortunately, is not going to happen. I respect the bravery of the Iranian protesters, but the unfortunate fact is that they're outnumbered and will never be able to develop into a major revolutionary movement. For every one of the pro-democracy protesters, there are about 20 ultra-conservative Shi'a who support Ahmadinejad and are proud of the Islamic Revolution. Iran, too, is going to need to undergo enormous cultural change before it will become a democracy.

Last edited by MT2008; 09-26-2009 at 09:00 PM.
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