Blanks

[ShootingJames]

I've heard back in the early days of filming, they didn't have blanks and shot live rounds

I'm not sure what you're considering the early days of filming, but I just wanted to add that as far as I know they have always had blanks in movies and at no time did the movie industry use live rounds as a standard practice.

[Excalibur]

So blanks have always been around since the early 1900s?

[Nyles]

Originally Posted by ShootingJames

I've never heard of something that shreds a wooden projectile. Would love to know more about this if it's true, because it sounds like a terrible idea in theory. I'd love to know how it was done safely and cleanly. Seems that wood shavings and residue would gather in the barrel pretty quickly and eventually block it, and then well . . . disaster.

The wood tipped blanks were, to my knowledge, for military training and used without any kind of blocked barrel. I still see them at gun shows and they pop up for sale on gunbroker some times.

Can't speak to the film industry, but the Swedes used a device to shred wooded bullets, and many other countries did as well. Thats why most Swedish Mausers you see have a threaded muzzle.

[ShootingJames]

I did a little research after I read your post Nyles and realized that I used to have a swedish blank adapter for a mauser rifle. I never knew that it was for wooden bullets. Thank you.

They are pretty cool looking little devices. It was in a box of old parts I picked at a gun show in Orlando many years ago, and I might even still have it in the shop some place.

I was picturing an IN BARREL adapter like we use these days, and not something that was attached to the end of the barrel. I just imagined slivers of wood getting clogged inside a barrel.

So blanks have always been around since the early 1900s?

I believe blank cartridges for training have been around since the early 1900's yes. I don't think it was terribly long after metallic cartridges became the norm. But I have to know for sure now.

I am on a mission as well to find out the history of blank ammunition used in film. You guys have made me wonder when exactly it was first put into use and how it was created, and how it evolved over time.

I don't know exactly when the film industry standardized crimped blanks but I want to now.

I have a bunch of old wax sealed 38S&W blanks that I just keep around because I think they are cool.

I'm going to call a few friends I have in LA and see what I can dig up. I might also call the firearms museum to see what they can tell me. I'm only a few hours from there by car.

I'm planning a trip to Cali this fall as well. So I will see what I can learn.

[Nyles]

There have been blanks for pretty much as long as there have been cartridges, I've seen British military blanks in .577 Snider. Very useful for training.

[MT2008]

I read on at least one site that the wood heads were used in filming, but admittedly, I don't know what time period it referred to. Presumably, it was during the very, very early days of film.

Also, I remember watching "Little Ceasar", and the Tommy Gun used at the end of that movie has a BFA that looks very similar to the devices I mentioned earlier (the type that shreds wood projectiles as they exit the muzzle).

[Krel]

A few years back I read an article on blanks. It said that blanks are made from rifle brass, which is cut to length for loading, and crimping. The article explained that, that is why it is so hard to make a .45 work with blanks. There is no rifle brass the same size as a .45 acp round.

Does anyone know it this is true?

I read after the "Twilight Zone" movie tragedy, that one of the new changes was new restrictions on using live ammo. They used to use live ammo to shoot holes in car doors and barricades. James Cagney said that for the scene in "White Heat" where they were shooting at him with machine guns, they were really shooting at him! Last year I saw a photo of them shooting that scene. There was a marksman on a platform aiming a Thompson smg at the building near the actors.

David.

[predator20]

Originally Posted by Krel

A few years back I read an article on blanks. It said that blanks are made from rifle brass, which is cut to length for loading, and crimping. The article explained that, that is why it is so hard to make a .45 work with blanks. There is no rifle brass the same size as a .45 acp round.

Does anyone know it this is true?



David.

This is taken from a users talk page. I just happened to notice it when I responded to the user on another matter.

==Re: 1911 adaptation==
The 1911 pistols used in the early films fall into three categories. (1) 1911 used strictly as a hand prop has in waving it around or in a holster. (2) Fired live on set. This is something that was done in the 1920's and 1930's just prior to blank adapting. The scene would be of shooting a door or car trunk lid by the actor. (3) 1911 lookalikes which were a cast aluminum clam shell that looked like a 1911 but held a Colt Detective Special of Iver Johnson revolvers. These we used from 1930's to the early 1960's since the 1911 pistols could not fire more than one round. In most of your early films the autos used were the Colt 1903 Hammerless or another pistol that was similar. The reason for this was they are a direct blowback design so they were easy to convert to blanks. The 1911 is a delayed blowback design since the barrel is not fixed it cams up and down. The armories had to figure out how to get this to work with blanks. It took several different armorers 30 years to develop the blanks and the blank conversion to work in the 45 caliber 1911. The film industry was able to use the [[Star Model B]] as a stand in for the 1911 from the 1950's until 1970's and the 9mm was easier to convert than the 45 auto. As for how the 1911 are converted I can not pass on that information since I still work in the industry. But you can find other conversions online used by reenactors which are close. -[[User:Phoenixent|Phoenixent]] 07:07, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

[predator20]

Originally Posted by Krel

I read after the "Twilight Zone" movie tragedy, that one of the new changes was new restrictions on using live ammo. They used to use live ammo to shoot holes in car doors and barricades. James Cagney said that for the scene in "White Heat" where they were shooting at him with machine guns, they were really shooting at him! Last year I saw a photo of them shooting that scene. There was a marksman on a platform aiming a Thompson smg at the building near the actors.

David.

This was right below the 1911 comment.

==Early Blank Adaption and Live Fire==
The early films using Maxim or Vickers firing used blanks also but not the blanks we use today. The blanks used in the early movies were military blanks that had either a wood or paper bullet. The blank adapter on both the Maxim and the Vickers was designed to shred the wood or paper bullets. But by using those types of blanks the weapon would work as intended. It was not until the use of wadded or crimped blank that the weapons had to be redesigned to function properly as there was no pressure build up like the blanks with the wooden bullets. The live rounds fired on set in the early days were standard rounds. Most of the time they would have a expert shooter off camera firing toward the actors location right after they moved. You can spot this in early westerns when a bullet strikes a sign it's a bullet hole and not a squib hit. It is harder to spot these in the early gangster movies but they are there also. The use of blanks came became a standard on set after a incident on a Cagney movie after that movie no live fire were allowed on set. - [[User:Phoenixent|Phoenixent]] 08:49, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

[Excalibur]

Some movies today do use live fire but for special cases like in Miami Vice where they used an actual Barret firing .50 cal on a car with dummies inside to show real impacts