Profanity in movie quotes

[Spartan198]

I've heard "shit" uncensored on broadcast TV, but only on FX and one episode of South Park on Comedy Central. "Ass" by itself is also frequently uncensored on broadcast TV (The Simpsons, Family Guy, etc.).

[funkychinaman]

I think "asshole" is okay now too. I remember hearing it on NYPD Blue when it was still on.

[Yournamehere]

First of all, "shit" has been used a lot on network television in the last few years and is more or less acceptable nowadays given the usage. I cite several South Park episodes, Several Comedy Central stand up programs, Nip Tuck, NCIS as you've said and I few others I can't remember. Furthermore, Comedy Central further pushes the envelope by using "fuck" during their later night programming (usually after 1 AM or so), as well as other otherwise censored words or phrases.

I bring this up for two reasons, one because the swearing standard is slowly coming down around us (yes you said Prime Time, but TV is TV all day more or less with regard to censorship), and two because based on that, TV allows us to say the words being disputed which are pretty much "shit", "fuck" and "asshole" at this point.

Furthermore this is a site based on movies, so why not just go by movie rating standards instead? If your answer is "because we just can't allow "shit", "fuck" and "asshole" on the site and retain professional nature" I must retort and say that is false. I don't think members should curse profusely, perhaps at all, on the site, but you aren't acknowledging my argument that what we're attempting to censor are quotes that are not ours and don't reflect us. And to dig up an argument already used, IMDB doesn't censor their quotes (granted they aren't on the front page) and they're a pretty credible site. We aren't them nor do we have their visitorbase, but that doesn't mean we have to water down because a few high profile people might frown upon us because of some idea that small sites must adhere to more strict standards of censoring content, not the people on here, they should hold their tongues, I agree with that, but the content we allow on the site like the quotes. Don't forget, again, despite this place not being our playground, that this is on a playground sort of medium, the internet, and that there are expectations of this medium as well, as in there being more leniency of content on here.

I just feel like there's a policy hole in posting censored quotes. If we're a database for people to look for movie guns, the quotes are unnecessary and they should be gone, period. If not, then we are a site about movies as well as guns and therefore we should take on more of a lax approach, especially given this is the internet and a site we are compared to does the same. Just as well, even if swearing is on the site and someone high profile does view the site, do you honestly think they will discount the entire site because of some visible profanity in a quote?

[funkychinaman]

Just for the record, South Park is not considered "network television." It's cable. Same with anything on Comedy Central or FX. (And South Park IS edited for content when in syndication.) Network television in the US is CBS, NBC, ABC, Fox, and CW. That's not counting what the affiliates chose to air on their own.

But, like the man said, it's a movie site. So, PG-13 standard?

[Yournamehere]

Ah, okay, I wasn't aware of a distinction between network television and cable. All the same though, I don't see the parallel between this site's censorship rules and network television's specifically.

[Evil Tim]

Originally Posted by MoviePropMaster2008

The problem is that we suddenly have a new member who (i think) has good intentions but is rubbing other members the wrong way with censoring foul language all over the place.

I wouldn't be so sure he has good intentions: most of his non-censoring edits are wrong (the SAS use M4s, or rather Candian-made C8s, and more to the point use M16s; moreover, the UK has adopted a version of the Lewis Machine & Tool .308 MWS as the L129A1), stupid or just plain bizarre. Despite that a good 80% of his edits have been reverted, he never tries to talk to anyone and never gives edit reasons. I really think he's either twelve years old or just trolling us.

[MoviePropMaster2008]

Originally Posted by Yournamehere

First of all, "shit" has been used a lot on network television in the last few years and is more or less acceptable nowadays given the usage. I cite several South Park episodes, Several Comedy Central stand up programs, Nip Tuck, NCIS as you've said and I few others I can't remember. Furthermore, Comedy Central further pushes the envelope by using "fuck" during their later night programming (usually after 1 AM or so), as well as other otherwise censored words or phrases.

I bring this up for two reasons, one because the swearing standard is slowly coming down around us (yes you said Prime Time, but TV is TV all day more or less with regard to censorship), and two because based on that, TV allows us to say the words being disputed which are pretty much "shit", "fuck" and "asshole" at this point.

Furthermore this is a site based on movies, so why not just go by movie rating standards instead? If your answer is "because we just can't allow "shit", "fuck" and "asshole" on the site and retain professional nature" I must retort and say that is false. I don't think members should curse profusely, perhaps at all, on the site, but you aren't acknowledging my argument that what we're attempting to censor are quotes that are not ours and don't reflect us. And to dig up an argument already used, IMDB doesn't censor their quotes (granted they aren't on the front page) and they're a pretty credible site. We aren't them nor do we have their visitorbase, but that doesn't mean we have to water down because a few high profile people might frown upon us because of some idea that small sites must adhere to more strict standards of censoring content, not the people on here, they should hold their tongues, I agree with that, but the content we allow on the site like the quotes. Don't forget, again, despite this place not being our playground, that this is on a playground sort of medium, the internet, and that there are expectations of this medium as well, as in there being more leniency of content on here.

I just feel like there's a policy hole in posting censored quotes. If we're a database for people to look for movie guns, the quotes are unnecessary and they should be gone, period. If not, then we are a site about movies as well as guns and therefore we should take on more of a lax approach, especially given this is the internet and a site we are compared to does the same. Just as well, even if swearing is on the site and someone high profile does view the site, do you honestly think they will discount the entire site because of some visible profanity in a quote?

You certainly seem to have vested a lot of your personal capital in this argument. The only thing I KNOW for a fact is that IMFDB will not become a profanity free for all. We are NOT like IMDB in many more ways than you mentioned (a) we don't moderate ALL items coming in ... THEY DO. If we had that sort of filter, we could go on a case by case basis but we don't. (b) we have too many kids and trolls creating trouble because of the Wiki format, Bunni did a great thing back in 2007, right now we seem to be a victim of our own success (c) we tend to attract too many people who fixate on certain things and just won't let it go (just looking at some of the VG arguments makes my head hurt). (d) we WILL always piss off someone. I remember putting my foot down against manga and books and I still got a boat load of grief about it from angry members. And most members don't see how many foreign members throughout the years complain about IMFDB being an American oriented site (with our standards, protocols, etc). That being said, I really have nothing else to say.

[Yournamehere]

I agree wholeheartedly that it shouldn't be a festival of us swearing, as that can bring the respectable nature of the site down, but I really think the quotes should stay intact or go.

[Evil Tim]

Originally Posted by MoviePropMaster2008

(b) we have too many kids and trolls creating trouble because of the Wiki format, Bunni did a great thing back in 2007, right now we seem to be a victim of our own success

I think you're being a little hard on the userbase. We have a lot of great contributors, some who still have a fair bit to learn, and only a few out-and-out bad eggs, most of whom don't last long. I think the main issue is we don't have a proper "how to format articles" guide up yet, which is something I'm actually working on, plus there's a lot of badly formatted articles lurking in the depths which need to be bought up to standard.

But then nobody ever said this was going to be a cakewalk, and we're all still here.

[MT2008]

There are a few things I will point out. I apologize if they've been mentioned before; I'm really busy right now and I didn't have time to read the entire topic. Anyway, my two cents:

(1.) When I first came to IMFDB, the movie quotes section already existed, and it contained a quote from Lock, Stock, and Two Smoking Barrels which used the F-word. I do not know if it was Bunni or someone else who added it. But profanity in the movie quotes has existed since IMFDB was created. Then again, there are a LOT of things that have changed about IMFDB since I came to the site, mostly for the better, so this isn't necessarily an argument in favor.

(2.) The movie quotes section exists purely for fun and humor. None of the quotes were penned by IMFDB members. Anybody, professional or otherwise, should recognize this fact. I don't believe that the movie quotes make us look "un-professional", and I was never in favor of censoring them.

(3.) I do agree that we do NOT want IMFDB members to openly swear on the actual pages or their discussion sections. That does make us look immature, and should not be tolerated. When Oliveria (who seems to be the whipping boy in this discussion) used to say stuff like "What the motherf*** is an M4A3?", it was embarrassing and cringe-inducing.

(4.) However, I do not believe that allowing profanity in movie quotes would necessarily open the door to swearing elsewhere (one of MPM's legitimate concerns) if we stated in the rules that profanity is only allowed in movie quotes and not elsewhere on the site. It seems like a pretty simple fix, and should take care of the problem.

(5.) I have seen IMDB get mentioned a bunch of times. IMDB's policy is basically that they do not allow profanity anywhere except in the "Memorable Quotes" section. Since we have often used IMDB as a model for things like movie titles, I think we should follow suit here, too. Nobody seems to think IMDB is un-professional for allowing profanity in quotes. Of course, IMDB also has filters, but I keep wondering - isn't there a way we could add the same thing to IMFDB (while making an exception for quotes)? I don't know much about Wiki software, but I find it hard to imagine there isn't a way to do this.

(6.) MPM, you have repeatedly brought up the issue of industry types looking at this site. I am asking this question with a sense of deja vu, because I'm pretty sure I've asked you this before, but why do you care so much? You know as well as anyone that Hollywood is filled with anti-gun liberals who are probably inclined to hate IMFDB for what it represents and the types of people who contribute to it (conservative, pro-gun, pro-military). You have even criticized those people on this very forum. I am sorry, but I just don't understand where you're coming from - you are expressing fear of being judged by a group of people even though there is already mutual disrespect and distrust between yourself and them. Please explain this to me. (And remember, I'm not disagreeing that we want to be professional or that too much profanity detracts from this goal; I just don't understand why industry people figure in your reasoning.)

(7.) My age is 26. By own admission, I'm also immature for my age; I'm often reminded of this by my significant other, who is five years my junior but WAY more mature than I will ever be. But maturity aside, I would prefer that my stance on this issue be judged by the content and quality of my arguments, rather than my age.