Heckler & Koch - overrated?

[MT2008]

BTW, this is Larry Correia's response to some of the controversy his article generated. I swear, it's too bad he doesn't do this kinda stuff for a living:

Ahh… fanboys


I check my blog stats once in awhile to see where hits are coming from. The most popular thing I’ve written on here is still the HK. Because you suck. And we hate you mega rant. That thing makes the rounds across all sorts of boards. It has showed up on every gun board, car boards, video game boards, and even the Scented Candle Emporium & Teddy Bear Hospital forum.

I follow these links back, and reading the HK Fanboy hate that is expressed is always priceless. Let me give you an example of one that I just read:

http://3dgamenight.com/forums/m_219219/mpage_2/tm.htm Post #34

Some dude named Zissky states that “it isn’t an accident that the extreme vast majority of both military and LE agencies around the world choose HK over all others”

HA HA HA Snort! You’ve got to be friggin’ kidding me. Okay, maybe back in the glory days of us using 9mm subguns and MP5s, but now? Okay, how many PDs carry HK? How many carry Glock? I’m not a Glock fan by any stretch of the imagination, but they own the domestic LE market. Since the “extreme vast majority” uses HK, and last I checked, Glock owns the market, I’m having a hard time figuring that one out.

Military? Okay, you’ve got… Germany, obviously. Spain, because you know, they do a lot of fighting. (blow up a subway and the whole country surrenders). And… Lithuania? Seriously, I do believe Lith SF uses a G36, or at least they had them in Afghanistan while our local SF group was deployed there. Then there are a handful of other countries that have been conned by the conniving Tutons into buying the melty rifle. Which is pretty sad, because a couple decades ago they managed to trick like 50 countries into buying the G3 (and most of them found themselves wishing they had gone with the FAL, but didn’t want to deal with those uppity Belgians)

There are a handful of people that do this stuff for a living that choose HK. Good for them. Most of the professional firearms instructors I know carry A. What their department mandates. B. Glock. C. A 1911 variant. Or D. Everything else. And D is made up of a lot of stuff, and in the years that I’ve been in the gun business, I’ve known a couple of professionals that chose the HK pistol. And usually they’re blessed with the Germanic 4th Knuckle Master Grip that allows them to shoot the damn thing and its horrible trigger.

I suppose “The Extreme Vast Majority” of LE and military refers to people playing Rainbow Six. Or he heard it on Future Weapons, so it must be real.

But this is the stuff that I enjoy. “the article was pure comedy, btw the guy has no penis or the money to afford a proper weapon and will probably be settling for his SW auto and his SKS but that’s for another thread”

Okay, random internet guy, let me address your concerns. Yes, the article was comedy. It made me laugh writing it. Next, I do in fact have a penis. I’m rather proud of it. And no, this is not the kind of site where I will post pictures of it for you.

As for the money to afford a proper weapon, I own a… wait for it… MACHINE GUN STORE. I have a couple of guns. Since I post under my own name, anybody can drop by my shop (which actually exists in Draper, Utah, on Earth, and not just on the internet) and see the HK machine guns that we own. (I know, critiquing something that you actually have experience with, rather than taking Future Weapons at its word? Shocking)

That kind of post always makes me laugh. Anytime a rabid fanboy reads a criticism of their chosen (overpriced) brand, then obviously the person doing the criticism must be poor. It’s kind of like that one douchebag that asked “what is your life worth” because if you didn’t carry an HK, then it wasn’t worth much. Your life is worth what it costs me to hire a crack head to kill you. Period. Just because you suck with money, and make poor purchasing decisions, and feel the need to blow $800-$1000 on a polymer handgun with poor ergonomics and a horrible trigger, or $1600+ on a neutered 10 shot rifle with a thumbhole stock, doesn’t make you a bad ass gunslinger.

Rabid fanboys (not limited to just HK, but occurring with all brands, across all spectrums of the universe, from cars to blenders) always assume that the person they’re talking to is ignorant. I’m willing to go out on a limb and bet that I’ve shot more rounds through HK weapons that your average HK fanboy. (unless you count the rounds fired while playing Call Of Duty 4, because then they’ve probably got me beat pretty handily, but I’m talking about actual bullets, from a real gun).

As for the SW auto or the SKS, why yes, I would actually take a new production SW 1911 or M&P over a USP any day of the week. But what do I know? I actually shoot guns, rather than just talk about them on the internet. As for the SKS, people that actually know how to shoot don’t make fun of them. When you aren’t hanging a bunch of cheap plastic garbage and faulty 30 round mags off of them, they actually work well, have a better trigger and usually shoot a better group than a G3.

Only I can buy 2 dozen decent SKS rifles for the price of a single original G3 and arm an entire Girl Scout troop. But darn it, then I couldn’t brag on the internet about how super awesome my gun is because it was expensive, and built in Germany. Which is ironic, since a couple of days ago, I posted a picture of myself with an MG3… But then again, what do I know? I’m just jealous of your fancy HK.

[Gunmaster45]

This guy is great. I'd take a 1911 over any HK gun because I'm a 1911 nut. If someone feels the need to diss the Great John Browning's design, It'd better be backed up.

I've met millions of those little dick weeds online who talk big talk (and diss your man hood) even though they have all their experiance in COD4. Mainly Youtube is filled with people like this. (Youtube is a HOSTILE place. The lighest joke is met with insults and violence. It's like a room littered with mouse traps. Make the wrong step and it all goes to hell.)

And having put rounds through 3 types of SKS rifles, (one iron sights/wood stock, one synthetic stock, and one wood stock with an illuminated scope reticle). Accurate guns despite their cheap price and look.

I was seriously laughing for ten minutes (spewed my soda) when I read that thing about him not having a penis.

I don't have as much experiance with HK guns or many others so I usually know when I'm overstepping my boundaries. But if it is rare, I always make sure to shoot it so I can say I did.

That's why I've shot ARs, SKSs, Garands, Mini-14s, M1 Carbines, whatever works. Sadly, I've NEVER SHOT AN AK. Held plenty, but never got trigger time on one. But I will one day. One day....

[Nyles]

Don't really feel that the P226 is all that old of a design, espescially the new ones with the rail. My only complaints about the Browning are that many of them are worn out, they're not all that safe to carry with a round chambered, and the lousy Hi Power trigger. The P226 fixes the two that are design issues, and any new pistol fixes the first and most pressing.

As for if they were to actually replace the Hi Power, the P226 would be the way to go, big reason being that the drills are almost the same as the P225. Simplifies training considerably, and won't cause problems if we leave the P225 in service for the small handed among us (and pilots / tankers who could use an extra compact weapon).

Originally Posted by MT2008

Actually, in the kinds of wars we fight nowadays, high-tech weaponry of any sort is generally of secondary importance to proper intel, but I guess that's another issue...

If the CF were holding trials for a new sidearm, what would you prefer? The P226 is definitely another good choice, but it's an aging design nowadays.

[MT2008]

Originally Posted by Gunmaster45

This guy is great. I'd take a 1911 over any HK gun because I'm a 1911 nut. If someone feels the need to diss the Great John Browning's design, It'd better be backed up.

Well, I think that's more a matter of particular brands of 1911 versus H&K. Though I guess nobody should say they would take an H&K over an original Colt, or something good like an STI.

Originally Posted by Gunmaster45

And having put rounds through 3 types of SKS rifles, (one iron sights/wood stock, one synthetic stock, and one wood stock with an illuminated scope reticle). Accurate guns despite their cheap price and look.

No doubt, I have respect for the design. That being said, I think it's rather odd to compare the SKS to the G3, considering they're completely different types of rifles.

Originally Posted by Gunmaster45

That's why I've shot ARs, SKSs, Garands, Mini-14s, M1 Carbines, whatever works. Sadly, I've NEVER SHOT AN AK. Held plenty, but never got trigger time on one. But I will one day. One day....

Wow, really? Well, I guess I should talk. Despite all I know about AKs, I've only fired the one I own 4 times. And I've had it for almost 5 years now (since I was 18).

I haven't fired a Garand, though. Weirdly, my paternal grandfather (who is a WWII vet) asks me all the time why I haven't, and all I can say is, "Nobody I know owns one." I guess I would like to, though I am really not a fan of the .30-.06 (my dad used to own a Winchester Model 70 in that caliber).

[MT2008]

Originally Posted by Nyles

Don't really feel that the P226 is all that old of a design, espescially the new ones with the rail. My only complaints about the Browning are that many of them are worn out, they're not all that safe to carry with a round chambered, and the lousy Hi Power trigger. The P226 fixes the two that are design issues, and any new pistol fixes the first and most pressing.

As for if they were to actually replace the Hi Power, the P226 would be the way to go, big reason being that the drills are almost the same as the P225. Simplifies training considerably, and won't cause problems if we leave the P225 in service for the small handed among us (and pilots / tankers who could use an extra compact weapon).

Oh, I'm as big a fan of the P226 as anyone (I own one), but I figured you'd prefer something more recent, with a polymer frame to cut down on the weight. The SIG Pro, for example, would also be easy to use for guys trained on the P225. It field-strips a little differently, but the basic layout of the controls and most components is similar.

Also, I'm of the opinion that the newer American-made milled-slide P226s (all of the railed ones have this) are inferior to the older German-made guns with stamped slides, like the one I own.

And BTW...

Originally Posted by Nyles

Also played with an HK 45 - wasn't all that impressed, all the same complaints as the USP.

The HK45 strikes me as one of the dumbest ideas they've come up with yet. It's bigger than a USP-45 (which is already big enough), and yet it only holds 10 rounds? Where's the appeal in that?

[Gunmaster45]

I've always liked the .30-06 round but it's a little heavier to handle than a .223 or a .308. The Garand's weight and gas operation handles the recoil quite well and I really like it. Can't imagine how vets in WWII or Korea liked it though, 9.5lbs gets annoying quick. I really like the M1 Carbine, but the example I own is in poor condition. It was a 'Nam issued Carbine, captured and use by the ARVN troops before being liberated back in US hands. The gun has a hairline crack on the bottom of the stock (under the reciever) and the wood guard over the barrel falls off a lot (especially during shooting). But the gun was light and held a lot of bullets for its day. One day I hope to own a better example for shooting (but I'll find an original, not one of those Auto Ordinance rip-offs.)

To me, a 1911 is the best you make of it. If you want a good gun to shoot rounds through or carry for protection, go out and buy a new Kimber, S&W, or whatever you fancy. For me, I like to think that the best gun is the one you build for yourself. That's why I like Colt Series 70s. They are very customizable and convertable. One day I'll build my dream .45 for carrying out of one. Add a nice compensator, bevelled mag well, extended safety and slide release, maybe some elavated night sights. No beavertail though, I hate them.

[Yournamehere]

I might have said this before, but I'll say it again, any bread and butter 1911 is customizeable, the Colt manufactures just offer the nice bluing and a heavy price tag. If you want something to customize, get s Springfield. Less than half the price, so you can buy two and still have money for parts, and SA has their own custom shop, so you want a refinish, part installation, or a repair, you can send it to them. There's nothing I want more than a nickel plated Series 70 or pre 70 made by Colt, but I know that at the end of the day, if I plan on shooting or carrying, it's gonna be my tough as nails Springer, and not the collectors item. My buddy's dad packed his fathers Colt 1903 from WWII, which was is nearly 100 percent condition.......... was, until he dropped it and scratched the frame. Now it's both semi-useless and of no collectors worth. Duty first, pride second.

[Gunmaster45]

You have a good point. If Springers are cheaper I might have to settle. But I've always been a Colt enthusiest. Guess I'll have to deal. Those guns in Sin City looked pretty cool but I assume they are a bit more expensive in Mil-Spec and I heard a GI is $600. Did I hear wrong?

And leave it to me to bring up Colt and 1911s in an HK thread.

[Yournamehere]

I got mine for about 520, and it's the Parkerized version, but in the right place you can get 'em for around 500 or so, including a stainless model. Unless you like small ass sights, I recommend you get a Mil-Spec too. It's got some other nice features but the 3-dot sights sell the gun alone, trust me. You can always get the GI and install new ones later, but if you NEED good combat sights out of the box, Mil-Spec all the way. I'm gonna have to get some installed, I hear you can buy the Mil-Spec sight set for like 40 bucks from SA unfinished, and cold blue 'em. I recommend buying stainless too cause it looks sexy and holds up a hell of a lot better than any bluing/parking. I kinda wish I had gotten the Stainless version to begin with, but I'm still happy. I'm thinking about getting it hard chromed in the future for carry, some guy on the M1911 forum did that and got a set of black double diamond grips. Good looking gun.

[MT2008]

To get back on topic, I thought I would post a bit of a forum conversation we had over at HKPRO a while back. We were discussing the 416 and H&K's stupid decision to hold off on marketing the gun to civilians (this was 2006, and the MR223, now called the MR556, hadn't been introduced yet).

Anyway, while we were talking about why it is that H&K seems to be so averse to civilian sales of its long guns, someone said this:

HK's mission as a company is to produce the most innovative and reliable firearms in the industry. This niche is expensive, and therefore, excludes the mass market. They leave the "quantity market" to others, who are quite content to cut corners to keep prices down. That is fine, too. Not everyone wants to spend a lot of money on a Cadillac, when a Ford is quite satisfactory to drive to work.

Shooters are typically a very conservative bunch. Most of them are left unmoved by new, revolutionary advances in firearm technology. When something out of the ordinary comes up, their walls of resistance go up....

.....HK is not interested in a dog-eats-dog market. While they undoubtedly would like to have a bigger market share (hopefully, the US plant project will finally work out), I don't think they will ever abandon their mission of quality and innovation, even with a different management, in the future - at least I hope not.

Sowgood9mm (one of the best posters on the board, IMO) pretty much tore this guy's bullshit argument apart with the following:

I was going to stay out of this, but come on....

HK=Innovation and referring HK to Cadillac is just ridiculous in today's market terms.

If HK is stuck on making supreme "innovative" firearms for the "elite", then why did they "cut corners" and start making plastic guns ? Sure, we all can debate how they are "polymer" all day long, but in the end, they are plastic and have been reported to melt and crack. Is this moving "forward" for the sake of pushing the innovation/technology envelope, or to cut corners and cost ?

Ahhh, exactly.

Take away the fact that agencies have money invested in MP5 mags and accessories and tell me why they are not "upgrading" to the new Uber Spectacular, cutting edge and Innovative UMP ( which is still cheaper than MP5's ) ?

LEO's still prefer and buy the MP5 over the UMP even though it is more expensive, heavier and of "out dated" technology.

Can you explain why so many countries do not use the G36 and you only see them in movies ? Is this because they are more expensive than HK's older metal guns.... no. It's because HK "cut corners" and made a plastic gun so they could compete with the AR "types".... they failed in that respect.
Also, besides the super space age (plastic) polymer that they use, what make a G36 so special and ahead of it's time ? Nothing ! It uses Armalite / Stoner technology wrapped in plastic.

Tell me again why the G36 is no longer imported into the US ? Is the US M4 crazy ? No, the M4's are cheaper and will do everything the G36 will do.

Also, does anyone really wonder why the XM8 went down in flames... Besides the fact that HK had no domestic plant, it was just a G36 with a new body, and everyone here knows it. Eventually, the Government found out... and they weren't happy about it.

And my last point. If HK is serving the small, more expensive niche market to satisfy those who can truly respect and love a more advanced weapon, then why did they re-create the M16 ?

Why would they even think of doing such a thing when M16/4's can be had for such little money (everywhere). Who exactly was HK pitching this new ( read: old piston design) to anyway ?

Was the time spent (wasted) on re-inventing the wheel worth it to HK with the 416/417 ?

So if Sig, FN, Beretta, Glock are the "Fords" of the US, then I guess most of us had rather support them at this time. You cannot support a company that refuses to sell you items.

If HK is the Cadillac, then they should be like the Cadillac and go back to the 80's when they were once great. When they were repected more.

Also, you guys remember right after the AWB expired everyone was reaching out to HK to find out if we would ever see 9X guns again ? Remember what they posted on their US website... something to this effect: " We no longer have the equipment for those guns and we have Lost the Engineering Prowess to make them."

Yeah, that makes perfect sense....

So, you might want to reevalutate exactly what "HK's mission" is these days.

Everyone is here because they like HK toys... the only reason any bashing is going on is because the writing is all over the wall. If us simple folk can see their mistakes, then we can only hope that HK will eventually see them. HK would outsell most "new" guns in the US if they had a plant here and if prices were more competitive. There would be no compromise is quality... they would just be doing the most sensible thing for the company.