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  #51  
Old 08-20-2010, 02:54 PM
BurtReynoldsMoustache BurtReynoldsMoustache is offline
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Originally Posted by k9870 View Post
I never understood why people hate cops, it always a reason like "they found my crack and its unfair" or "Why am i being arrested, other people steal more than I did." Police have a hard job. Im looking to become a police officer (im 20 now, most departments hire at 21, even with my degree and military background.) I know many police officers who are the most honest people I know and daily put them selves in danger for people who they dont know.
I don't hate the police, I don't even dislike them. But to sit and wonder why there are people who do hate the police is incredibly naive and ignorant. From my own personal experience I've been handcuffed and searched without probable cause, had my property searched without probable cause or warrant even after exercising my right to refuse search, threatened with arrest for exercising that right, I've been lied to about my rights even after I demonstrated that I knew them, accused of being a drug addict, I've had two completely false traffic citations written against me, and during the trial for one of them the officer committed perjury resulting in a conviction.

Then there are the horrible experiences I'm lucky enough to not have had to go through, the beatings, the midnight military style raids on family homes (some times at the wrong address), unnecessary and often sadistic use of less lethal devices on nonviolent suspects, mass arrests of law abiding citizens at publicly permitted events.

Are all cops like this? No. Are most cops like this? Not even close. But one bad apple ruins the whole bunch in the court of public opinion.
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  #52  
Old 08-20-2010, 05:51 PM
Jcordell Jcordell is offline
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Originally Posted by BurtReynoldsMoustache View Post
You are aware that the police are not legally obligated to protect individual citizens, yes?
I've been a cop for ten years. I've been hearing that statement for the past ten years as well. It's a great statement. Very provacative. And like so many one sentence statements it doesn't cover all the details.

Am I legally oligated to protect you? Well yes and no. I (I will refer to myself instead of "The Police") will respond if you call 911 , regardless of the time of day. If I arrive and you are being battered I will make every effort to stop the battering to include putting my life at risk and/or taking another life if that is what is required to stop the crime.

If I arrive on scene and there is an active shooter I and my fellow officers will be the ones going into the building/area while others are going away - very smart I might add. The ones leaving. And please don't refer to Colombine. That was eleven years ago and much has changed since then - because of that inccident. If you would like we can discuss Colombine on another thread.

If you are in an overturned car and there is gas leaking and I'm the first one on scene I will do whatever I can to help you. but I am not a fireman or a paramedic so I don't have their equipment or training. Nevertheless if not taking immediate action means you might die a firey death I'll do what I have to to try to free you - meaning I might die with you.

If I might add a personal experience here. The day before Thanksgiving 2008 I was the first officer to arrive at a bank robbery in progress. There were two armed suspects in the bank with multiple hostages. What did I do? Well I grabbed my shotgun and preceeded to do my best to evacuate the area - all the while knowing there was a bank robbery in progress. I could see the blinds going down in the bank's windows while I was running around in the open telling customers in surrounding businesses to get out of the area. I kept thinking of the 1997 North Hollywood Bank Robbery. But I did my job and I protected the public. Eventually many many more officers arrived (it was 10:00 A.M.) and the two suspects surrendered peacefully with no violence.

Am I telling you this because I want you to consider me to be a hero or that I think of myself as a hero? Nope. I like living and I consider going home at the end of my shift to be one big accomplishment. This is just part of the job. Along with much more mundane stuff.

So yes I am legally and ethically obligated to protect and help. Within all legal means.

However what your statement is referring to (in my opinion) is that I am not legally obligated to be a bodyguard. Yep. you are absolutely on the mark. I am not a bodyguard. I am not an agent of the United States Secret Service. Occassionaly officers might be tasked to serve on a protection detail, but it's very rare. There was a court case a few years ago in Colorado ( I think ) in which a women sued. She was demanding that the police should provide around the clock protection to victims of domestic violence who have protection orders/No Contact Orders. The court said no the police can't and won't do that.

Now some people thought that was wrong. But it wasn't. I work on a 58 man department. Our city has almost 50,000 residents. Care to guess how many people have No Contact Orders or Civil Protection Orders going at any given time in my city alone? I don't have a clue, but it sure in hell ain't less than 500 folks.

Care to tell me how we are going to provide protection for all those people? Where are we going to get the manpower and the money? Hey who here wants to see the sales tax increased to 25% and their property tax increased by 12%? What's that? Oh not just no but HELL NO! By the way one of those voices is mine. I am a tax payer and property owner as well.
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  #53  
Old 08-20-2010, 06:07 PM
Jcordell Jcordell is offline
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Default Police Protection Part 2

So we are not going to provide full protection. Nope. Yes ultimately personal protection falls to the individual. Which is why I am a member of the NRA and a strong supporter if the 2nd Amendment.

I always encourage people to get a concealed carry permit. I also stress that they make sure they understand what constitutes self defense and justifiable homicide (which isn't the same as murder) in the state of Idaho. The use of deadly force is no joke and it isn't to be taken lightly.

One last thing. A few years ago we recieved some intell that a contract had been put out on one of our detectives. There was reason to believe that it was legit.

Guess what? He wasn't provided with a protection detail. He told his neighbors and asked them to be on the lookout for anything suspicious. He carried all the time and an investigtion was initiated. He's still here. So even cops don't get special protection.
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  #54  
Old 08-20-2010, 06:16 PM
BurtReynoldsMoustache BurtReynoldsMoustache is offline
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You are not every police officer. Every police officer is not you.

This article lists a few cases that illustrate what I'm talking about. Among them is the case that originally brought this issue to my attention, the rape of three women that was reported via 911 multiple times and ignored.

http://iarnuocon.newsvine.com/_news/...to-protect-you

Also in the case you're talking about, the police did nothing after the ex-husband kidnapped the daughters, whom he later murdered before opening fire on a police station. The woman was awarded a judgement which was reversed by the Supreme Court.

Special protection has nothing to do with it. It's a matter of liability over negligence.

Last edited by BurtReynoldsMoustache; 08-20-2010 at 06:23 PM.
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  #55  
Old 08-20-2010, 06:23 PM
Jcordell Jcordell is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BurtReynoldsMoustache View Post
I don't hate the police, I don't even dislike them. But to sit and wonder why there are people who do hate the police is incredibly naive and ignorant. From my own personal experience I've been handcuffed and searched without probable cause, had my property searched without probable cause or warrant even after exercising my right to refuse search, threatened with arrest for exercising that right, I've been lied to about my rights even after I demonstrated that I knew them, accused of being a drug addict, I've had two completely false traffic citations written against me, and during the trial for one of them the officer committed perjury resulting in a conviction.

Then there are the horrible experiences I'm lucky enough to not have had to go through, the beatings, the midnight military style raids on family homes (some times at the wrong address), unnecessary and often sadistic use of less lethal devices on nonviolent suspects, mass arrests of law abiding citizens at publicly permitted events.

Are all cops like this? No. Are most cops like this? Not even close. But one bad apple ruins the whole bunch in the court of public opinion.
Mistakes happen and sometimes the ramifications can be horrible.

Mass arrests are not illegal. If the law abiding citizens are not being so law abiding such as tresspassing, interfering with the flow of traffic, disturbing the peace ect. Believe it or not people can be idiots even a legal events. And it isn't uncommon for indivduals to attend legal events with the intention of engaging in not so law abiding behavior becasue it will generate news coverage etc. But if we choose to look the other way the heat can be just as bad from property owners ect. Just becasue the activity is legal does not give the participants the right to engage in lawless and disorderly behavior.

I personally know ( former ) cops who engaged in illegal acts and went to prison. Nobody covered for those guys. Don't have an answer for you except that it does happen. Just like there are members of the U.S. military who have engaged in criminal acts. Just like there are private citizens who have engaged in criminal acts.

As far as your personal experiences. Well forgive me for saying this, but you must of had lousy legal representation if everything you have related is actually true.

Many years ago when I was a rookie (and not as clever as I thought I was) I interviewed a suspect who was in a custodial situation. Meaning she wasn't free to go. Guess what? I didn't advise her of her rights under the Miranda Warning. I got a confession by the way.

The case was thrown out when her overworked and underpaid public defender realized that I had failed to advise her of the Miranda Warning. Hell she didn't even think about it. I've seen other public defenders as well as much better paid private attorneys attack possible weak points in a criminal case like vultures. It's actually amazing.

So if you are being truthful it sounds like to me that you have grounds for one doozy of a lawsuit. Have you contacted the American Civil Liberties Union?

However if you are not an American citizen (and live in another country beside the U.S.A.) ,or you are an American citizen, but living in another country, then I will readily aknowledge that it's different and everything I just said is null and void? Is that a possibility?

Last edited by Jcordell; 08-20-2010 at 06:25 PM.
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  #56  
Old 08-20-2010, 06:38 PM
BurtReynoldsMoustache BurtReynoldsMoustache is offline
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Originally Posted by Checkman View Post
Well forgive me for saying this, but you must of had lousy legal representation if everything you have related is actually true.
Seeing as I represented myself in that trial, yes.

As far as suing people, not worth it. I was never charged with anything because of any of that, and after going through a torturous litigation process once already because of an auto collision, I decided I didn't have the time or energy to take on "the man" for what amounted to a few personally insulting inconveniences.

Having my car searched actually got me out of a ticket one time, the officers spent 10 minutes searching for the methamphetamine they were oh so sure I had only to get a call to do some real law enforcing before they had a chance to write me up for speeding.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Checkman View Post
However if you are not an American citizen (and live in another country beside the U.S.A.) ,or you are an American citizen, but living in another country, then I will readily aknowledge that it's different and everything I just said is null and void? Is that a possibility?
Every once in awhile "craziest police video" type shows will have a segment focusing on riot police in some backwards absurdistan such as Thailand or Belarus. Watching those clips reminds me how good we have it here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Meredith_Kercher

Even the supposedly egalitarian and progressive European Union is lightyears behind us in terms of due process.

Last edited by BurtReynoldsMoustache; 08-20-2010 at 06:44 PM.
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  #57  
Old 08-20-2010, 06:46 PM
Jcordell Jcordell is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BurtReynoldsMoustache View Post
You are not every police officer. Every police officer is not you.

This article lists a few cases that illustrate what I'm talking about. Among them is the case that originally brought this issue to my attention, the rape of three women that was reported via 911 multiple times and ignored.

http://iarnuocon.newsvine.com/_news/...to-protect-you

Also in the case you're talking about, the police did nothing after the ex-husband kidnapped the daughters, whom he later murdered before opening fire on a police station. The woman was awarded a judgement which was reversed by the Supreme Court.

Special protection has nothing to do with it. It's a matter of liability over negligence.
The most recent of those cases is from 1989. Much has changed in the past 21 years. My father was a cop from 1970 - 1994. We sometimes compare notes and he's amazed by the changes.

For example during the whole of his career as a cop in Idaho the police could not arrest in a domestic violence situation if the victim refused to press charges. Period. But in the late 90's that changed. Now I can arrest if I believe that there is PC. Period. Many times the victim will stand there and tell me that she/he does not want to press charges. I explain to everyone involved that I'm pressing the charges of Domestic Battery.

A few years ago in a neighboring city we had a husband (domestic violence suspect) get out on pre-trial release. He had been arrested multiple times for domestic violence. This time he went to his ex-wife's house and killed her. His mother-in-law called 911 and the police responded promptly. However it was too late. I just put that in there to let you know that I readily aknowledge bad things can and still do happen.

The way the 911 dispatch centers work has also changed over the past twenty years. Dispatchers now get better training for one. They also have better equipment. Which of course means more money being spent and that can mean more taxes. But I'm digressing.

More than once I've jumped on the radio and had dispatch to tell me unless a gun is involved to stand by because they are on 911.

Once again I will readily aknowledge that mistakes happen and there are examples of less than stellar behavior, but to pull cases from the past fifty years across the United States dosen't show the whole situation accurately.

There has been much case law that also states that we the police have to excercise Due Dilligence and follow Due Process.

In many respects that's like a gun grabber finding examples of gun owners behaving in a criminal manner. Only the examples cover the past fifty years and have occurred over across the U.S.
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  #58  
Old 08-20-2010, 07:50 PM
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funkychinaman funkychinaman is offline
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I thought about writing a short-story or novel about a vigilante back when I was in college. My roommate had been mugged while stumbling home from a frat party while drunk, and it got the wheels turning. I figured there'd a conflict between the idealistic students who saw a vigilante as a dangerous rogue and the townies who thought that while he was a dangerous rogue, he was ultimately keeping the streets safe.

He'd be a student, living in North Campus in Ann Arbor, MI. No mask, just a hoodie, a cheap coat, possibly from good will, easily disposable. Cheap .22 pistol, a Saturday night special like a Lorcin or a Raven arms 22 that can be tossed away without regret. Homemade suppressor built in a machine shop (North Campus is home to the engineering, architecture and art schools at UM.) Remington hollow-point subsonic .22 ammo, available at any sporting goods store. A S&W SWAT knife as backup and for silent kills. Pepper spray to deal with those who are just in the wrong place at the wrong time. (Although today, I would think a stun gun, or a taser.) Latex gloves, which would be disposed of daily into the dumpsters of the UM Medical Center (conveniently located between North Campus and Central Campus.) A hollowed out laptop from Property Dispo to hide the weapons and ammo in. (Property Dispo is where UM got rid of old equipment, from computers to furniture. You can get a six year old laptop for $50.) So basically, it'd be Without Remorse set in a college town, but instead of revenge as the motive, it'd just be a student who decides to vent his anger and frustrations out on local low-lifes.
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  #59  
Old 08-28-2010, 08:49 PM
Spades of Columbia Spades of Columbia is offline
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I would have to go with a nice suit and a sharp smile with a Glock 29...I would focus all my vigilante duties on corruption of highly powerful professionals. Wouldnt waste time on pimps and petty criminals, but men and women that take advantage of the systems we have in place and evil business that ruin other people's lives for profit. My thought process is that no one ever expected clark kent and all he did to conceal himself of a suit and glasses.
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