Proposed rule: Rifles as a single category

[MoviePropMaster2008]

Some members have communicated to me that they think rifles should be a single category rather than have rifles and then 'assault rifles' separately. I think this makes sense for several reasons. (a) Having several entries for AKs, M4s, and then have another category for an M1 garand, looks sloppy (b) There are cases where some long guns just don't fit any category well, the M1 Carbine, the SKS, the M14, the FN FAL, the G3, the FG42. The generic category: RIFLE would encompass all of them

But probably the most compelling is popular culture. Since IMFDB members tend to have a knowledge base about firearms that is far greater than the average public, we don't want to perpetrate the notion that 'assault rifle' is somehow more 'evil' than a 'regular rifle' In the civilian world of semi auto only weapons, there is NO difference between a Ruger mini 14 rifle in a plain wooden stock and an AR15 in evil black tactical furniture when it comes to firepower. However, the public perceives the Mini-14 in wood stock as a 'rifle' and the AR-15 as an evil 'assault rifle'. Don't even get me started on the Ruger Mini-30 as the 'nice gun' and the AK47 as the 'evil gun'.

So I propose the IMFDB formatting standard (that members like jcordell have been fixing on IMFDB, thanks to all) be 'set' on rifles and eschew categorizing various rifles as 'assault rifles'.

Ideas? Complaints? Comments? Input? All are welcome.

[Mazryonh]

Hmm, I thought the M14, FN FAL, G3, and M1 Garand were Battle Rifles thanks to the cartridge used for them. The SKS is what you call a semiautomatic-only rifle, which could in theory be turned into a Designated Marksman or Sniper Rifle depending on how it's deployed. The M1 Carbine is, well, a semiautomatic-only carbine. And wasn't the FG 42 really just an prototypical assault rifle (before the STG-44 breakthrough) meant for paratroopers?

I don't believe any major military uses that semiautomatic-only carbine weapon class anymore because compact assault rifles and Personal Defense Weapons have made that weapon class obsolete. About the only military equivalent I can think of in the "semiautomatic weapon of carbine length that fires shortened battle rifle cartridges or comparable performance cartridges" that would be a shotgun loaded with slugs, but that's rare.

I think the designations of Assault Rifle, Battle Rifle, Designated Marksman/Sniper Rifle still have merit because they can easily denote what class the weapon fits into, which is usually dependent on the cartridge used and what firing modes are available with that specific weapon. There are plenty of pages with quite a few gun entries already, and alphabetical order can only do so much to make it easier to read.

I really think that "culture" and a gun's "public relations status" really shouldn't have a place on the wiki entries. If people want to discuss gun politics or a weapon's public image, they should do so on the forums. There's no reason we can't be civil, and those who won't or can't be really should not be allowed to muck up the website for everyone else.

I would counter-propose this: that stuff like the M1 Carbine and SKS go into a section titled "semiautomatic-only rifles/carbines" that are NOT explicitly Designated Marksman or Sniper Rifle variants with the necessary accessories (at a minimum a scope with some degree of magnification, not only with iron sights or a no-magnification red dot sight or the like). They are different from, say, an M4A1 (which is also a carbine but capable of burst or fully automatic fire and now generally accepted as a "compact assault rifle") or an M14 (which is a Battle Rifle also capable of fully automatic fire unless it's a Designated Marksmen /Sniper Rifle variant), but not (in my opinion) enough cause to lump all "rifle-class small arms" together.

[predator20]

I think a single rifle category is the best way to to go. There's no sense in having one for this type of rifle or that type. Keep it simple.

[Mazryonh]

Originally Posted by predator20

I think a single rifle category is the best way to to go. There's no sense in having one for this type of rifle or that type. Keep it simple.

Simpler to categorize, maybe. But not simpler to render in alphabetical order (unless someone makes a macro to do it via software on the wiki) and not simpler to read in my view.

[predator20]

Originally Posted by Mazryonh

Simpler to categorize, maybe. But not simpler to render in alphabetical order (unless someone makes a macro to do it via software on the wiki) and not simpler to read in my view.

Mazryonh,

I think you misunderstood.

MPM is talking about on movie pages that are categorized by weapon type. (Handgun, Shotgun, SMG, etc) The actual gun pages will still have assault rifle or battle rifle category.

[Spartan198]

Sounds reasonable to me.

[Mazryonh]

Originally Posted by predator20

Mazryonh,

I think you misunderstood.

MPM is talking about on movie pages that are categorized by weapon type. (Handgun, Shotgun, SMG, etc) The actual gun pages will still have assault rifle or battle rifle category.

No, I knew beforehand that MPM was talking about eliminating the different rifle designations within the tables of contents for movie, television, anime, or game entries to curb the "negative public relations," not eliminating classifications within the weapon entries themselves. I'm saying that we would lose a great deal of organization within a page, and it would make it more time-consuming to order alphabetically since where there were two to six classes of rifles previously (assault rifles/battle rifles/designated marksmen rifles/sniper rifles/semiautomatic-only rifles), you now have one big "rifles" entry that will be that much harder and time-consuming to alphabetize, not to mention harder to find individual weapon entries within. It is easier to alphabetize weapon entries within a single work of fiction with multiple appropriate weapon class sections.

But seriously, MPM, who on Earth here has been complaining about the designations of rifles in entries on this site? By no means are we actually distributing or using firearms against the wrong people in real life by making entries on this website; we are simply cataloguing them in works of FICTION. If they have a problem with so many "evil assault rifles" in a movie, they should take it up with the movie's creators, not us. It's not our problem. And the "semiautomatic-only rifle" category would encompass rifles like the SKS or M1 carbine handily.

[Excalibur]

What about bolt action rifles? Should they get a category to themselves?

[Mazryonh]

Originally Posted by Excalibur

What about bolt action rifles? Should they get a category to themselves?

I don't see any reason why not, unless they're actually battle rifles, like the M1 Garand or Mosin Nagant M91/30, or converted to be Sniper/Designated Marksmen Rifles by sticking a scope on top.

[predator20]

Originally Posted by Mazryonh

No, I knew beforehand that MPM was talking about eliminating the different rifle designations within the tables of contents for movie, television, anime, or game entries to curb the "negative public relations," not eliminating classifications within the weapon entries themselves. I'm saying that we would lose a great deal of organization within a page, and it would make it more time-consuming to order alphabetically since where there were two to six classes of rifles previously (assault rifles/battle rifles/designated marksmen rifles/sniper rifles/semiautomatic-only rifles), you now have one big "rifles" entry that will be that much harder and time-consuming to alphabetize, not to mention harder to find individual weapon entries within. It is easier to alphabetize weapon entries within a single work of fiction with multiple appropriate weapon class sections.

But seriously, MPM, who on Earth here has been complaining about the designations of rifles in entries on this site? By no means are we actually distributing or using firearms against the wrong people in real life by making entries on this website; we are simply cataloguing them in works of FICTION. If they have a problem with so many "evil assault rifles" in a movie, they should take it up with the movie's creators, not us.

That's too many categories. In some pages if you were doing it that way you would have maybe one rifle in each rifle category. Also I don't alphabetize, I start with what the main characters use and then whats used the most after that.

Originally Posted by Mazryonh

And the "semiautomatic-only rifle" category would encompass rifles like the SKS or M1 carbine handily.

What about a Mini-14? It looks pretty much like an M1 carbine. But has the same firepower as an AR.

MPM quote
"In the civilian world of semi auto only weapons, there is NO difference between a Ruger mini 14 rifle in a plain wooden stock and an AR15 in evil black tactical furniture when it comes to firepower."

That's the point MPM was trying to make.