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Old 09-08-2013, 02:18 AM
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Default What if an IPSC guy goes crazy?

I just saw Double Tap and Triple Tap back to back and it made me wonder. What if a guy who's a champion of competition shooting goes on a shooting spree with his race gun? Would police be able to stop the guy before he causes a lot of mayhem with his gun and would first responders be a match for a guy who could probably make head shots at speeds and distances that a cop isn't trained for?

This is one of those what if worst case scenarios along with what if a team of highly trained military guys actually rob a bank like Heat and/or go on a shooting spree on their way out.
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Old 09-08-2013, 04:51 AM
Mandolin Mandolin is offline
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He'd do slightly better than most criminals, then get killed by police. If it's in the US, the police have entered the 21st century and have stopped issuing S&W Model 10s. They'll have Glock of some sort, and a shotgun or assault rifle in the trunk. I'm not sure how well he''l be able to get headshots, considering said heads are moving and shooting back. Sure, he can shoot well while on a clock. Can he do the same while being shot at?

As for the highly trained team of military guys, try The Kill Point. 6 ex-Marines rob a bank and it degenerates into a siege. They use a shotgun, a couple semi-only SMG clones, and one Type 56. Just ignore the worse-than-stormtrooper accuracy, the stupid police, the blatant continuity breaks, and the robber's leader more-or-less preaching to the gawkers. On second thought, the miniseries was terrible, don't bother watching it. A dozen cops, lying prone, can't hit the standing bad guys while firing on semi.

http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/The_Kill_Point

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Old 09-08-2013, 05:00 AM
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Point taken about the first situation. But I have read many articles about how cops can be taken surprised by a lone gunman. A really good gunman that can shoot faster than a cop drawing his pistol is a scary notion. If he's a psychopath, returning fire wouldn't phase him. To him, they'd just be moving targets.


The Kill Point was really a terrible show. Those guys were supposed to portray Marines. I knew Marines that would chew those guys up. No real military discipline at all. And really only one of them entered with a rifle and the rest with SMGs and a shotgun with no stock. Real Marines would have been smarter. I showed one of my Marine buddies this show and he laughed how it all fell apart. No back up plan, alternate escape routes. Just assuming the cops won't show up. He would have had his squad gone in with rifles, AKs or AR-15s because they were familiar with the weapons, body armor, tactical gear like in Heat. First responders would have been boned by overwhelming firepower and Marine Corp training. Sure when SWAT shows up, it'd be over, but the point of a bank robbery is brute force and swift action before the police could bring in the heavy stuff.
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Old 09-08-2013, 12:59 PM
commando552 commando552 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Excalibur View Post
Point taken about the first situation. But I have read many articles about how cops can be taken surprised by a lone gunman. A really good gunman that can shoot faster than a cop drawing his pistol is a scary notion. If he's a psychopath, returning fire wouldn't phase him. To him, they'd just be moving targets.
Granted a skilled competition shooter will be more likely to kill the first guy, but after that the police wouldn't be sending in one or two guys at a time with holstered pistols. There would be dozens of SWAT guys going after him with heavy body armour and assault rifles, with stuff like ballistic shields and sniper rifles which has no analogue to IPSC and is something he would be totally incapable of dealing with. Shooting people who are moving, ducking in and out of cover, coming from any direction and can engages you effectively from a couple of hundred meters out is a lot different to shooting stationary targets along a predicted course of fire within ten or so meters.
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Old 09-08-2013, 06:58 PM
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Send in the SWAT team. And since a lot of police departments are now equipping patrol cars with AR carbines, maybe just take him out from long range.
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Old 09-08-2013, 07:58 PM
Yournamehere Yournamehere is offline
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First of all, there will always be a point where ability is weight out by the number of opponents you face. This is called disparity of force. One expert can't outgun 20 amateurs with roughly the same equipment. This is exactly why we have and to some extent trust a police force; there can be more cops than bad guys, and they may just happen to have the equipment and training to deal with such a problem in a timely fashion (but the "may" in that sentence is why some people like us choose to take personal responsibility for our lives and carry).

It doesn't even have to be SWAT. If you have one man armed to the teeth, perhaps even armored significantly, enough patrolmen with sidearms and the occasional longarm can make a difference, if not stop the perpetrator. Citing North Hollywood, though I hate to do so, Phillips was a juggernaut, but was eventually brought to the point of suicide by the sheer volume of police firing on him with relatively ineffective weapons.

Furthermore, competition shooting is not tactical shooting, and if your aim is to kill people effectively in a short time, skill in competitive environments is just one variable in a more grand equation, and would not necessarily translate into a combat or even a mass shooter scenario. In combat, there are so many other things to consider besides marksmanship or speed.

The real kicker isn't one or two competition shooters starting something, it's a relatively strong and cohesive fighting force with knowledge, strength and courage to actually cause a long string of damage and effectively defend themselves from police. Thankfully you need to be ex-military, as well as contain a large amount of stupidity or sociopathy to be that effective and apathetic towards others, which is why we don't see this too often. You have stupid ex-mil guys who aren't sociopathic, you have stupid ex-mil guys who are, you see moderately intelligent ex-mil who still aren't smart or strong willed enough to apply their skills toward such goals for whatever reason (no desire to commit crime or kill, whatever). And then you need many of these intelligent, sociopathic ex-mil men to join forces, and they just don't exist or co-exist. We appreciate enigmatic serial killers and criminal masterminds in the movies for the same reason we like mysticism and unicorns; they don't really exist.
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Old 10-18-2013, 02:44 AM
Jcordell Jcordell is offline
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Here is an example from history. Okay it's a very thin example, but it works. In my opinion in WWII the Germans were better warfighters than we were. We being the allies. We learned and got better, but in the end we won because there were more of us and we just had more of everything. It might hurt some folks pride, but for the most part we simply crushed the Germans - and Japanese.

An IPSC shooter gone Active Shooter? Yeah he would be formidable, but in the end he would just be one man. It isn't perfect and it isn't very movie cool, but he would go down. However there would be some casulties. Fortunately all the IPSC folks I've met over the years are very stable people who are more likely to be on the other side in an active shooter situation.

Last edited by Jcordell; 10-18-2013 at 02:47 AM.
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Old 10-19-2013, 12:07 AM
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If it was just a shooting spree, yes, the law will always win, like in the 1986 Miami shootout or the North Hollywood shootout. I guess the nightmare scenario would be if a sniper went on a spree, like the Beltway Sniper. Those guys were caught by sheer luck. Who knows how long they would've kept going? You replace John Muhammad, who had qualified as a Expert Rifleman, and his AR-15 with an actual scout sniper and their whole array of toys, and you have a crime spree and reign of terror that can last for months. I suppose the only limiting factor would be the fact that there would only be so few shooters who would have that kind of training, and it wouldn't be too hard to come up with a list of suspects.
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Old 10-19-2013, 04:28 AM
Jcordell Jcordell is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by funkychinaman View Post
If it was just a shooting spree, yes, the law will always win, like in the 1986 Miami shootout or the North Hollywood shootout. I guess the nightmare scenario would be if a sniper went on a spree, like the Beltway Sniper. Those guys were caught by sheer luck. Who knows how long they would've kept going? You replace John Muhammad, who had qualified as a Expert Rifleman, and his AR-15 with an actual scout sniper and their whole array of toys, and you have a crime spree and reign of terror that can last for months. I suppose the only limiting factor would be the fact that there would only be so few shooters who would have that kind of training, and it wouldn't be too hard to come up with a list of suspects.
Yep that would be a very bad situation. Very bad.
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Old 10-23-2013, 06:20 PM
SPEMack618 SPEMack618 is offline
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Actually, he only shot Sharpshooter, the step below Expert, but I still get your point.

Thankfully, in the Army at least, the battery of psychological tests one goes through before sniper school is intense.
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