For want of a shotgun

[Mazryonh]

There is something that's been bugging me about shotguns recently. I'd expect to hear about them being used to breach locked doors during vendetta killings/assassinations or spree killings, but I haven't found them (unless I'm not getting my news from the right sources). This is odd to me, because of the following:

• 12-gauge shotguns are available even in places with stricter gun control laws.
• Several forms of commonly available 12-gauge shotgun ammo can reliably breach door locks, from slugs, buckshot, and even birdshot.
• Unlike lock picking, you don't need special skills and a lot of practice to breach doors with a shotgun (though of course they help if you want to do it quickly), just the right distance and good aim at a close target.

Of course, lock-picking or using a crowbar is less noisy, but given the recent news reports about spree or vendetta shooters who don't intend on surviving their rampages, I don't think most of them would care about staying quiet, and I've also read eyewitness accounts that the opening shots of spree shootings are often mistaken for firecrackers. Am I just missing those news reports where spree shooters in fact do use shotguns to break-in or get to victims who are behind locked (and not heavily barricaded) doors?

Probably the most glaring example of this can be found in the La Isla Vista shootings. The shooter wanted to break into a building but since he had only handguns and no entry tools, he resorted to shooting people on the street instead. All for want of a shotgun.

[Evil Tim]

You're assuming psycho / sociopaths have a good grasp of indoor combat tactics. Some of these guys don't even realise they can shoot through wooden doors. Often when you read accounts of spree killers encountering locked doors their solution was to bang on the door and demand the occupants open it, because they're that far gone that they think they have a right to kill those people.

Plus, commercially available shotguns tend to be a bit on the big side.

[funkychinaman]

Originally Posted by Evil Tim

You're assuming psycho / sociopaths have a good grasp of indoor combat tactics. Some of these guys don't even realise they can shoot through wooden doors. Often when you read accounts of spree killers encountering locked doors their solution was to bang on the door and demand the occupants open it, because they're that far gone that they think they have a right to kill those people.

Plus, commercially available shotguns tend to be a bit on the big side.

In the US, at least, you can start with a full sized field gun and legally modify it to a shorter gun. For example, you can start with a Remington 870 field gun, buy a shorter barrel, and then buy a pistol grip or folding stock.

And if you're want to do something illegal, sky's the limit.

[Excalibur]

Yeah, there's nothing stopping a criminal from legally purchasing a very short barrel to make an SBS to use in a crime...and I always point this out...defeats the purpose of the NFA that punishes you for making one NOT for criminal use.

[funkychinaman]

Originally Posted by Excalibur

Yeah, there's nothing stopping a criminal from legally purchasing a very short barrel to make an SBS to use in a crime...and I always point this out...defeats the purpose of the NFA that punishes you for making one NOT for criminal use.

Or just walking into a Walmart buying a Remington 870 Express for $300, and cutting down the stock and barrel at home.

[funkychinaman]

Originally Posted by funkychinaman

Or just walking into a Walmart buying a Remington 870 Express for $300, and cutting down the stock and barrel at home.

BTW, hypothetically, would I be able to legally cut down a 26" barrel to a still legal length?

[Mazryonh]

Originally Posted by Evil Tim

You're assuming psycho / sociopaths have a good grasp of indoor combat tactics. Some of these guys don't even realise they can shoot through wooden doors. Often when you read accounts of spree killers encountering locked doors their solution was to bang on the door and demand the occupants open it, because they're that far gone that they think they have a right to kill those people.

About "shooting through doors"--I'm sure that the Oscar Pistorius case has alerted many to that fact if they didn't know it already. And yes, these killers often seem so blinded by rage they don't know what to do when stopped by a locked/barricaded door. The Isla Vista shooter had the brains to write a 100-page-plus manifesto, but had no idea what to do other than resort to shooting people on the street when the building he most wanted to enter was locked (as he should have known it would be).

Still, the door-breaching ability of shotguns isn't that hard to find out about, and relatively simple to perform with widely-available tools. Haven't there also been reports of gang members going undercover and joining the US military to get military training to use in crime as well? That's another source.

Originally Posted by Excalibur

Yeah, there's nothing stopping a criminal from legally purchasing a very short barrel to make an SBS to use in a crime...and I always point this out...defeats the purpose of the NFA that punishes you for making one NOT for criminal use.

I haven't heard of many crime reports where shooters fancy themselves the next Clyde Barrow and use cut-down shotguns. Do you have some links?

[funkychinaman]

Don't you need special ammo to breach doors?

[Evil Tim]

Originally Posted by Mazryonh

About "shooting through doors"--I'm sure that the Oscar Pistorius case has alerted many to that fact if they didn't know it already. And yes, these killers often seem so blinded by rage they don't know what to do when stopped by a locked/barricaded door. The Isla Vista shooter had the brains to write a 100-page-plus manifesto, but had no idea what to do other than resort to shooting people on the street when the building he most wanted to enter was locked (as he should have known it would be).

Having read some of the manifesto I think it's more narcissistic personality disorder + autism + persistence than brains, he comes across as a pretentious idiot who's been educated above his level of intelligence but still can't hide he's 99 cents short of a quarter. Most of the 100+ pages isn't his "manifesto," it's him relating stories of his attempts at getting laid that make Chris-Chan look like Shaft.

You have to remember that these people do not think like normal people. The shooting is about them becoming a god to the puny insects. imagining the puny insects might act to preserve their own safety would undermine the reasoning that lets them think it's ok to be shooting at them in the first place.

Originally Posted by Mazryonh

Still, the door-breaching ability of shotguns isn't that hard to find out about, and relatively simple to perform with widely-available tools. Haven't there also been reports of gang members going undercover and joining the US military to get military training to use in crime as well? That's another source

That's mostly Mexican gangs IIRC (there's a lot more call for gunmen down there and a lot more money in it), but I don't think shotgun breaching of doors is a big part of standard soldier training. And re: widely available tools, you might as well just bring a hammer, axe or drill, which have the benefit of being much easier to get hold of and not requiring ammunition.

[Excalibur]

Originally Posted by Mazryonh

I haven't heard of many crime reports where shooters fancy themselves the next Clyde Barrow and use cut-down shotguns. Do you have some links?

Did you just use the "If I have no links, what I said is invalid" argument?

I really hope you were not trying to be condescending when you wrote that.

What I said was there's nothing stopping criminals from breaking the law...because they do. Sometimes it's hard to find news of this because the media rarely covers small time crime unless it's a school shooting now.

The best example I can think of with how criminals break the NFA is a while ago, in California, 1 guy part of a team attempted to break into a house and the media focused on his weapon of choice, an AR-15 pistol with the infamous Sig Brace attached and they are trying to prosecute him using an illegal NFA item.

That aside, I never give your typical gangbanger or asshole with a gun any credit of intelligence except they pick their targets by seeing who doesn't have a gun and who's a softer target.