The guns of Boston

[MT2008]

Originally Posted by k9870

more to see if it was illegally aquired, who might of been supplying them, etc. If its street junk, or if its something hard to come by suggesting a larger operation

There's no doubt somebody helped them get the guns illegally, given the severity of MA's gun laws (and Boston's in particular). BATFE already has said that neither of the two brothers was licensed to own firearms and that they're looking for whoever purchased the guns for them.

Originally Posted by funkychinaman

But how did they kill that cop in the first place?

Exactly. @Excalibur: Once again, this is why you need to read (and think) before you post.

Originally Posted by SPEMack618

My guess is that it was something plain, compliant with Mass's gun laws, and not particularly dangerous looking.

It is probably a hand gun that doesn't fit the narrative of "assault weapons".

Furthermore, I reckon that since these guys had gone so long without attracting attention to themselves, and even getting interviewed by the FBI, they wouldn't attempt to purchase a weapon that would draw attention or run the risk of running afoul of Mass's firearms laws.

There was a rifle, not just handguns. Investigators have already determined that much. Also, don't you think it's ironic that you're essentially making an argument which seriously contradicts the pro-RKBA community's "criminals don't care about gun laws" argument?

Also, I was following Tweeters who were posting police radio chatter on the night of the shooting. There were officers panicking and asking if anyone nearby had a rifle. I realize that there was a lot of confusion, but the radio chatter suggests that whatever the Tsarnaev brothers fired at BPD had a lot of range and allowed them to fire a lot of rounds pretty quickly, which means that it was (A.) a rifle, and (B.) something fitted with a high-capacity magazine.

[Excalibur]

Yes I know they most likely killed the cop with an illegal gun and then stole the officer's gun.

Why is the news constantly bringing up they don't have gun permits for their guns? It seems to be the headline for a lot of articles? I can see how this can be used to fuel the anti-gun control argument but I was more surprised the media hasn't thrown out more "they used assault weapons" quotes.

I also don't think it matters anymore what guns they used, the liberal media will always target the guns used and demonize them. It could have been a Ruger 10/22 and gun owners would still get it.

[MT2008]

Originally Posted by Excalibur

I was more surprised the media hasn't thrown out more "they used assault weapons" quotes.

The media may be (disproportionately) liberal, but contrary to what you seem to believe, their hard-on for gun control isn't so huge that they're going to make up information like that. The types of weapons used have not been reported yet, so the media has not yet reported it. Simple.

That being said, when the investigators do announce that the Tsarnaev brothers fired an assault rifle during the gun battle, I will not be surprised to see the press (and the gun controllers) dwell on it pretty heavily. But even then, I don't imagine this incident serving as a rallying cry for more gun control. (Since, unlike Newtown and Aurora, the guns were secondary to the bombing, and because those cases are far more clear-cut examples of mentally ill shooters having questionable legal access to powerful weaponry.)

[SPEMack618]

I read somewhere that niether of the two had a Massachuettes Permit to Purchase a Firearm.

Further more, Mass has a pretty strict AWB in place already, so I doubt there will be much in the way of anti-gun drum beating because of that.

However, I look for reloading supplies to be targeted.

And heck, that coincides nicely with the cry for more legislation in regards to fertilizer storage after the incident in West, Texas.

[Mr.Ice]

Here is another photo of the BPD weapons seen during the lockdown:

[http://s3-ec.buzzfed.com/static/enha...6599760-2.jpg]

[SPEMack618]

Originally Posted by MT2008

There was a rifle, not just handguns. Investigators have already determined that much. Also, don't you think it's ironic that you're essentially making an argument which seriously contradicts the pro-RKBA community's "criminals don't care about gun laws" argument?

I don't think it ironic at all. I believe that there is a big difference between these guys and your average thug with a Lorcin .25 stuck in his waistband.

Sidenote: I still wish that the surviving suspect would be charged as a simple common criminal though, I've always felt that the bringing of special terrorism charges when an obvious case of plain murder exsists gives these guys entirerly too much credit and fame. Also, I hope against all hope that he does NOT recieve the death penalty. No need to make a marter of him. Lock him up in Adminstrative Segregation at the Mass State Penitenary for life without parole and forget about him.

However, back to guns, I was merely surmising that if these guys planned to become American terrorists, that they wouldn't compromise thier mission by getting busted on something so mundane as a gun charge.

There is an element of racial profiling to that. An obvious American citizen with a mile long rap sheet gets busted for an illegal gun, he gets to face an overburdened criminal justice system, and unless the gun pocession was tacked on to a drug case or the like, in all likelihood, it won't be prosecuted as such.

However, a guy like the deceased suspect who had been to Russian, looks foreign, and has already been investigated by the FBI at the behest of a foreign government(my guess is the Russians) gets busted for a gun crime, red flags should go up.

Now all that being said, there is nothing to say that a straw purchase(already illegal) didn't take place, a theft(already illegal), or a person to person transfer happened, which according to my understanding of Mass law, is illegal.

And hell, going with Occam's Razor, there is nothing that would have stopped one of them form buying a rifle out of state.

Another aside, the 200 rounds exchanged, has that been confirmed as the numbers of rounds expended by the suspects?

Because I could certainly understand that a justifiably jumpy police force would expend a heap ton of lead in the general direction of the muzzle flash of a known cop killer/suspected terrorist. Especially at night.

I've been there, it just feels good when your weapon goes BANG and kicks back into your shoulder.

Also, didn't mean to brush this aside with my previous response, I overlooked your quote of mine.

[MT2008]

Originally Posted by SPEMack618

However, back to guns, I was merely surmising that if these guys planned to become American terrorists, that they wouldn't compromise thier mission by getting busted on something so mundane as a gun charge.

Remember these guys?

Originally Posted by SPEMack618

Now all that being said, there is nothing to say that a straw purchase(already illegal) didn't take place, a theft(already illegal), or a person to person transfer happened, which according to my understanding of Mass law, is illegal.

However, a guy like the deceased suspect who had been to Russian, looks foreign, and has already been investigated by the FBI at the behest of a foreign government(my guess is the Russians) gets busted for a gun crime, red flags should go up.

A reasonable point, but these guys (and especially the older brother) strike me as way too hot-headed to have thought things through that carefully. And even if they weren't, it's not as though it's THAT hard to have a friend in another state (i.e. Maine, which has pretty lax gun laws compared to the rest of the northeastern U.S.) buy an AR-15 or two and drive over to pick it up. A straw purchases is a crime that is extremely easy to get away with, and one which criminals across the U.S. have gotten away with repeatedly for many years. I can't imagine that the Tsarnaev brothers were so risk-averse that they calculated that breaking Massachusetts gun laws was going to attract much attention and foil their plot. We already know that these guys built and tested explosives; that's a risk that carries the possibility of death (and, therefore, mission failure). Breaking MA's gun laws probably seemed far less risky in comparison to building the bombs that they used in their main attack.

Also, to use an (admittedly flawed) parallel: The Columbine shooters both had long rap sheets for B&E and were already known to local law enforcement. That hardly deterred them from having friends buy them weapons that they were not legally old enough to buy themselves (and then sawing off the barrels on their two shotguns).

Originally Posted by SPEMack618

Sidenote: I still wish that the surviving suspect would be charged as a simple common criminal though, I've always felt that the bringing of special terrorism charges when an obvious case of plain murder exsists gives these guys entirerly too much credit and fame. Also, I hope against all hope that he does NOT recieve the death penalty. No need to make a marter of him. Lock him up in Adminstrative Segregation at the Mass State Penitenary for life without parole and forget about him.

Agreed. I would rather not treat these guys as "enemy combatants". In practical terms, there isn't much difference between guys like the Tsarnaev brothers and guys like the Columbine shooters.

Originally Posted by SPEMack618

Another aside, the 200 rounds exchanged, has that been confirmed as the numbers of rounds expended by the suspects?

Because I could certainly understand that a justifiably jumpy police force would expend a heap ton of lead in the general direction of the muzzle flash of a known cop killer/suspected terrorist. Especially at night.

Yeah, I believe the 200 rounds figure is accurate. The impression I had from reading the Tweets is that the BPD officers came up against a lot more firepower than they were expecting.

[SPEMack618]

Originally Posted by MT2008

Also, to use an (admittedly flawed) parallel: The Columbine shooters both had long rap sheets for B&E and were already known to local law enforcement. That hardly deterred them from having friends buy them weapons that they were not legally old enough to buy themselves (and then sawing off the barrels on their two shotguns).

That is sort of my point. The dumb bimbo who bought the Tec-9 and something else, can't remember, for the two at Columbine was never prosecuted for her part in the straw sale, nor accessory to murder. Instead she got drug in front of Congress to speak about lax gun laws. I guess straw sales should be made even more illegal.

Further more, I think the reason that gun laws have no effect currently is because they aren't used. Atlanta has a provision, in which a prosecutor can tac on another five years to any criminal's sentence for the use of a firearm in the commission of a crime. It has been used exactly forty times since enacment in 2007.

Something like 10 convictions resulted from false 4473s in 2012, out of like 7,000 rejected NICS checks.

Straw sales are a problem. They are already illegal. Making them more illegal isn't going to stop to them, but effective prosecutions with stiff sentences will.

Originally Posted by MT2008

Agreed. I would rather not treat these guys as "enemy combatants". In practical terms, there isn't much difference between guys like the Tsarnaev brothers and guys like the Columbine shooters.

There isn't anything to seperate the Tsarnaev brothers from the Columbine shooters. Or the North Hollywood shooters. Or Lanza. Or Holmes. Or Whitman. Or Boothe.

A terrorist is nothing more than a common criminal adhereing to a political philosophy instead of personal betterment.

I think that the Taliban guys we capture in Afghanistan should be turned over to the Afghan National Police and tried for whatever crimes could be pinned on them. And left to rot in Mazeri-Shariff.

These guys were American citizens and should stand before a jury of thier peers, preferably from Boston.

[Excalibur]

The problem is they are calling it terrorism solely because these guys used bombs for their targets and in a post 9/11 US, that's different from the Oklahoma City bomber. These other guys used guns and those were the subject of debate and motive.

Also the North Hollywood guys were bank robbers. They are a completely different class of crazies than the mass shooters.

I forgot, who's Boothe?

[SPEMack618]

John Wilkes Boothe.

Different class of crazy, yes. But they are still violent criminals and should be treated as such.

Labeling them terrorists and gives them entirerly too much publicity and ego inflation.

That's the best thing the French ever did was charging Carlos the Jackal with murder, like an average criminal, instead of various terrorism chargers.

It destroyes the romanticism of any terrorist movement if would be terrorists knew that instead of being lauded as oppressed freedom fighters and martryed at the hands of a totalitarian regime, they are left to rot in a prison with average felons.