SIG-Sauer P320 to replace Beretta M9

[funkychinaman]

Originally Posted by Mazryonh

The process of something being admitted or barred from becoming a NATO standard is a bit fuzzy. The US Armed Forces went with 5.56mm NATO in the Vietnam War long before it became a NATO standard in 1980. There was also the indefinite postponement of 5.7x28mm becoming a NATO standard when the Germans complained about their 4.6x30mm round being left out.

The infrastructure for widespread 10mm Auto manufacturing already exists, in the form of .40 S&W manufacturing lines (because .40 S&W cases are just 3mm shorter than 10mm Auto cases). Furthermore, using 10mm Auto in an compact-SMG-type (perhaps with an MP7-style layout) platform instead of 5.56mm SBRs can save money and soldiers' hearing, because SBRs waste a lot of powder in the casings with every shot, and SMGs are much easier to suppress efficiently from short barrels than SBRs, and SMGs are also quieter than SBRs when unsuppressed.

I still think it would be interesting if SIG-Sauer puts out a 10mm version of their M17 and M18 handguns and some gun vlogger tests it alongside the 9x19mm versions. If it comes down to the handgun or SMG, at least the ballistic performance and barrier-blind performance of the 10mm Auto over the 9mm Para will mean that the soldier with that handgun or SMG will be that much more capable.

SOCOM has tremendous leeway when it comes to weapons selection, and they're happy with 9mm and .45 ACP.

[Spartan198]

Originally Posted by Mazryonh

The US Armed Forces went with 5.56mm NATO in the Vietnam War long before it became a NATO standard in 1980.

Same caliber, but different rounds. That was the M193 series. The round chosen for NATO standardization was the SS109/M855.

[Evil Tim]

Originally Posted by Mazryonh

I still think it would be interesting if SIG-Sauer puts out a 10mm version of their M17 and M18 handguns and some gun vlogger tests it alongside the 9x19mm versions. If it comes down to the handgun or SMG, at least the ballistic performance and barrier-blind performance of the 10mm Auto over the 9mm Para will mean that the soldier with that handgun or SMG will be that much more capable.

The main issue is that 10mm Auto has a really bad reputation in military / LE because none of the early guns that fired it worked properly and a lot of the early ammo was faulty.

[Excalibur]

Originally Posted by Evil Tim

The main issue is that 10mm Auto has a really bad reputation in military / LE because none of the early guns that fired it worked properly and a lot of the early ammo was faulty.

I thought the primary reason for not adopting the 10mm was because women and some "weak" men can't handle the recoil, so they then took some powder out and then got the bright idea of creating the .40 S&W

[Mazryonh]

Originally Posted by funkychinaman

SOCOM has tremendous leeway when it comes to weapons selection, and they're happy with 9mm and .45 ACP.

I don't know anything about SOCOM or whether they've heard about or even given 10mm Auto handguns/SMGs a fair shake.

Originally Posted by Spartan198

Same caliber, but different rounds. That was the M193 series. The round chosen for NATO standardization was the SS109/M855.

They still used 5.56x45mm for a long time before it became a NATO standard. Essentially they went it alone and waited for the other NATO members to follow suit.

Originally Posted by Evil Tim

The main issue is that 10mm Auto has a really bad reputation in military / LE because none of the early guns that fired it worked properly and a lot of the early ammo was faulty.

You could say the same about the early-model M16s and the early 5.56x45mm combat loadings. I'd say that the 10mm has already proven itself quite a bit, just not in many well-known professional environments. The FBI HRT still uses the MP5/10, for instance.

Originally Posted by Excalibur

I thought the primary reason for not adopting the 10mm was because women and some "weak" men can't handle the recoil, so they then took some powder out and then got the bright idea of creating the .40 S&W

That was the case for the FBI. Had things been a little different, such as if the 10mm had been put into a Mini-Uzi-type platform, or even a variant of the M2 Carbine, or an MP5K-PDW, for use as a PDW or even compact duty weapon for a Law Enforcement Agency, then it would have been much more controllable since those platforms have more points of contact than handguns.

A lot of people don't want to take the effort to master the weapons they're issued. Budget issues also don't help since weapon qualifications are usually not very often either. If those women and "weak" men made some honest efforts, more of them might have been able to handle 10mm handguns. New platforms like the B&T Universal Service Weapon would definitely help though.

[Evil Tim]

Originally Posted by Mazryonh

You could say the same about the early-model M16s and the early 5.56x45mm combat loadings.

You could indeed, but the Army knew damn well they weren't going to get another new rifle after the M14 had the shortest service life of any standard-issue rifle in US history, so they were going to have to make it work. If the FBI had bought a million 10mm Auto guns rather than a handful you'd have seen the same thing, but they didn't.

[funkychinaman]

Originally Posted by Mazryonh

I don't know anything about SOCOM or whether they've heard about or even given 10mm Auto handguns/SMGs a fair shake.

That's fair. I'm sure one day they'll take a minute to evaluate a cartridge that's been available for over thirty years.

I think it's safe to assume they've heard about it. I'm sure someone in SOCOM has seen an episode of Miami Vice or read a firearms publication since 1983.

[Excalibur]

I thought the FBI HRT retired the MP5/10 because it was overpowered for a platform that was never designed for it

[Mazryonh]

Originally Posted by funkychinaman

That's fair. I'm sure one day they'll take a minute to evaluate a cartridge that's been available for over thirty years.

I think it's safe to assume they've heard about it. I'm sure someone in SOCOM has seen an episode of Miami Vice or read a firearms publication since 1983.

There's no need to be sarcastic. But given the examples you brought up, hasn't the MP5 in 9mm had a long history among the special forces? If the MP5/10 was more widely available I think they'd see it as a straight upgrade. The advantages are substantial and the infrastructure is already there.

Originally Posted by Excalibur

I thought the FBI HRT retired the MP5/10 because it was overpowered for a platform that was never designed for it

Wasn't there a variant of the HK G3 battle rifle (the base platform for the MP5) that used 5.56mm NATO, called the HK33? I think it's clear that the G3 platform could handle the pressures of the 10mm, if the right variant of the G3 was made.

[Evil Tim]

Originally Posted by Mazryonh

There's no need to be sarcastic. But given the examples you brought up, hasn't the MP5 in 9mm had a long history among the special forces? If the MP5/10 was more widely available I think they'd see it as a straight upgrade. The advantages are substantial and the infrastructure is already there.

Actually most of the advantages of 9mm in SF and police use are in things like not penetrating walls as much, they don't necessarily want a more powerful round for the work they do with subguns. Also 10mm rounds are over twice as expensive as 9mm.