M16A4 in the Army

[jdun]

There is actually one case against one gun dealer in the USA that suppose to supplies to guns to the Mexican. That case has been drop because the Judge said the ATF faked the records.

You would expect more indictments on gun dealers across the USA because the serial numbers will lead them to the gun dealers. But again that isn't the case.

16" is standard AR for a lot of LEA. The US military used 16" in the past before Colt went with 14.5". 16" barrel is standard across the board so the point is moot.

The lowers is what the ATF considered a firearms on an AR. It is where the serial number is located. The upper are not considered a firearm. You can go to any internet gun shop and have it deliver to your home. You can get a 14.5" barrel or shorter deliver to your home. There is no law preventing you owning a 14.5 upper or less in the USA. However it is illegal to mate it with a lower that isn't NFA. Again the 14.5" vs 16" is a moot point.

Guns are exported to Mexico legally.

The guns that are used by Mexicans gangs are full auto. If they are able to convert to full auto they are capable of making it themselves.

[MT2008]

Originally Posted by Phoenixent

There is a lot of Colt LEO carbines 16" barrel notched for the M203 with late style buttstocks. I don't know it the Mexican Government actually captured those or put on a dog and pony show like Ruby Ridge. You take a few weapons that are captured and add your own hoping no one would notice. What I find interesting on the photos is the amount of LEO there are in the small sample. Colt has a six month back log on LEO due to so many PD's buying them for the patrol cars. The other thing that funny with this is the Mexican Government refused to give the serial numbers to ATF so there is no way to cross check where this stuff is coming from.

You know that can't be in Mexico as Guns are outlawed in Mexico.

First of all, I forgot that Colt's LEO carbines still have 16" barrels.

However, are you sure those are all Colts? Some of them might be Bushmasters or Olympic Arms ARs.

[MT2008]

Originally Posted by jdun

There is actually one case against one gun dealer in the USA that suppose to supplies to guns to the Mexican. That case has been drop because the Judge said the ATF faked the records.

You would expect more indictments on gun dealers across the USA because the serial numbers will lead them to the gun dealers. But again that isn't the case.

I'm not sure gun dealers selling weapons illegally is really the problem. As I understand it, the main issue is that Mexicans - both cartel gunmen and civilians - are acquiring the guns through straw purchases. A lot of them have relatives who live in the U.S. legally and buy them the guns.

Again, I must emphasize that in Texas, there are FFLs who seem to be aware of this happening and want to do something to stop it. There are accounts of dealers who get some thuggish-looking Latino who comes in asking about a gun but doesn't buy, and then a few hours later, a Latina comes in and buys the same gun he was looking at.

Originally Posted by jdun

16" is standard AR for a lot of LEA. The US military used 16" in the past before Colt went with 14.5". 16" barrel is standard across the board so the point is moot.

The lowers is what the ATF considered a firearms on an AR. It is where the serial number is located. The upper are not considered a firearm. You can go to any internet gun shop and have it deliver to your home. You can get a 14.5" barrel or shorter deliver to your home. There is no law preventing you owning a 14.5 upper or less in the USA. However it is illegal to mate it with a lower that isn't NFA. Again the 14.5" vs 16" is a moot point.

Guns are exported to Mexico legally.

The guns that are used by Mexicans gangs are full auto. If they are able to convert to full auto they are capable of making it themselves.

First of all, I haven't seen any data indicating the percentage of weapons used by the cartels that are full-auto. I wouldn't trust the media, either. We all know how much they confuse semi- with full-auto "assault weapons" on a regular basis. The news reports which give the impression that the cartels are using exclusively full-auto weapons aren't to be trusted.

Anyway, why would anyone use 16" barrels unless that's what happened to be available to them? Most of the ARs seen in Mexican govt. hands seem to be short-barreled versions, and those are seen occasionally in cartel gun caches, but not always.

I'm sorry, but what you're saying just doesn't make sense. It makes way more sense to me that cartel gunmen would ask relatives or hire straw buyers here in Texas. It's fairly easy to do and to get away with, and the semi-auto ARs with 16" barrels do almost everything their full-auto, shorter-barreled counterparts do. Why manufacture a new, full-auto AR from scratch (which would take expertise that I doubt these illiterate thugs have), when you can have someone across the border purchase something that's fairly easy to buy at a Texas FFL?

Note that I am not endorsing gun bans or anything of the sort. My stance is that if Congress would just admit the War on Drugs has failed and end it right now, we wouldn't even need to worry about all this cartel war bullshit.

[Phoenixent]

Originally Posted by MT2008

First of all, I forgot that Colt's LEO carbines still have 16" barrels.

However, are you sure those are all Colts? Some of them might be Bushmasters or Olympic Arms ARs.

You are correct it could be other makes on the LEO carbines my bad. I still have a hard time with the number confiscated when they can't control the drug cartel at the border. Also have you heard about the Mexican troop defending runners on our side of the border armed with their G36 clones?

[MT2008]

Originally Posted by Phoenixent

You are correct it could be other makes on the LEO carbines my bad. I still have a hard time with the number confiscated when they can't control the drug cartel at the border. Also have you heard about the Mexican troop defending runners on our side of the border armed with their G36 clones?

I haven't, but it definitely wouldn't surprise me if it was true. If you think the Mexican government's stats on guns confiscated are bullshit, you should see their stats on official corruption.

[Phoenixent]

Originally Posted by MT2008

I haven't, but it definitely wouldn't surprise me if it was true. If you think the Mexican government's stats on guns confiscated are bullshit, you should see their stats on official corruption.

Amen Brother

[Rockwolf66]

Originally Posted by Spartan198

Wow, those Five-Sevens are a lot bigger than they look in pictures.

I wear a size large Glove and While I can comfortably hold an MK 23 SOCCOM pistol with all the trimmings. the FiveseveN is in the same baot as the Desert Ego...just too big for my hand.

[jdun]

We got a close border but not close enough IMO. It is harder to smuggle guns to Mexico from the USA then from other Latin countries. Mexico southern border is wide open, anything to everything comes from the South.

It doesn't matter if it is a straw purchases or not the serial number will trace all the way back to the original manufacture. The ATF will know who was the buyer and who was the seller. If most of the arms came from straw buyers in the USA then the ATF would know, yes? Yet there is only one person that was taken to court and the judge threw the case out.

It does not take much time to manufacture a weapon. You do not need a education. Ten years old kids in third world countries are manufacturing firearms in their hunt with basic tools. If these kids can do it I bet those thugs can.

It is cheaper and safer for drug dealers to manufacture firearms then to smuggle it into the country from the USA. All they need is a $1,000 milling machine. Put a computer on it, hire a kid to feed the machine, and you'll be pumping out firearms 24/7.

Firearms are very very simple machine. The problem is most Americans are too dumb or lazy to understand this.

16" barrel is the standard. Everyone use them including the military and LEO. You can't said the 16" barrel is made for civilians only because that's not true. The US Marine use 20" barrels so if you see a 20" barrel AR15 use by drug thugs can you said it came from the US Marines? All I'm saying it is a moot point to even mention barrel length.

[k9870]

Barrel lenghth is important as m855 is supposed to penetrate then break apart for it's wounding power, and for the necessary velocity a mininum barrel length of 16 inches is need. That's why m4s suck. They seriously could add 1.5inches of barrel onto the m4 and room clear just as good.

As to the m16 use in the army, my friend was issued an a2 in the army and put on a collapsible stock. Basically the same gun as an a4 at that point.

[MT2008]

Originally Posted by jdun

We got a close border but not close enough IMO. It is harder to smuggle guns to Mexico from the USA then from other Latin countries. Mexico southern border is wide open, anything to everything comes from the South.

People have complained about the flow of drugs and illegal immigrants into this country for years. How is it more difficult to smuggle guns out than to smuggle people and drugs in?

Originally Posted by jdun

It doesn't matter if it is a straw purchases or not the serial number will trace all the way back to the original manufacture. The ATF will know who was the buyer and who was the seller. If most of the arms came from straw buyers in the USA then the ATF would know, yes? Yet there is only one person that was taken to court and the judge threw the case out.

Isn't that because the serial numbers are often removed?

Also, you aren't distinguishing between FFLs and individuals who buy from them, and then re-sell the guns.

Originally Posted by jdun

It does not take much time to manufacture a weapon. You do not need a education. Ten years old kids in third world countries are manufacturing firearms in their hunt with basic tools. If these kids can do it I bet those thugs can.

It is cheaper and safer for drug dealers to manufacture firearms then to smuggle it into the country from the USA. All they need is a $1,000 milling machine. Put a computer on it, hire a kid to feed the machine, and you'll be pumping out firearms 24/7.

And that still makes no sense to me. How is cheaper or safer to make a gun? Why would you buy a $1000 milling machine to manufacture an AK that can be bought for under $500 at an FFL, if you know people who can buy it for you? And the thing is, if the person smuggling the gun gets caught, then it still doesn't come back to them either way. The drug dealers don't smuggle the guns themselves; they get other people to do it for them.

Originally Posted by jdun

16" barrel is the standard. Everyone use them including the military and LEO. You can't said the 16" barrel is made for civilians only because that's not true. The US Marine use 20" barrels so if you see a 20" barrel AR15 use by drug thugs can you said it came from the US Marines? All I'm saying it is a moot point to even mention barrel length.

I know, but I'm talking about AR-15 carbines. Of course most military M16s (the full-size models) have 20" barrels. But on a carbine, 16" usually means that the gun was made for the civilian market. Most of the full-auto carbine AR-15 variants used by the military and SWAT teams have shorter barrels than that - 14.5" is standard on the M4, while 11.5" is preferred for SWAT.

So, no, barrel length is not a moot point when we're talking about AR carbines. If you see an M4gery-type rifle with a 16" barrel (as most of the guns in that picture have), it's safe to assume that it's a civilian model that started out in an American gun store.