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Old 02-10-2009, 01:41 AM
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Yes, sorry, back on topic! Disclaimer: Liberals are still naive, idiotic, and misguided, and I hate it when we have too many of them running the agenda in Congress.

As far as the AWB goes, I hated when it was in place and don't want to see it re-implemented. But I'm still not too sure about some of the arguments...

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Originally Posted by Excalibur View Post
The major gripe I've always had was ban and limitations of magazine capacity, and cosmetic appearences of firearms like "Assault Rifles" that don't do anything to change the function of the weapon, just make them less "threatening".
While the AWB's provisions for defining an "assault weapon" were ridiculous, I don't disagree with the idea that there is something functionally different about a semi-automatic AK-47 versus a hunting rifle.

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Originally Posted by Excalibur View Post
For example, 3 10 round magazines when comepared to one 30 round magazine. Besides what's been said that this is a stupid arguement, it doesn't change the fact that the shooter with 3 10 rounds can do over what he can do with a 30 round magazine. The weapon still shoots bullets, the same kind of bullets, nothing changes, just reload time.
But reload time is quite important. If there was no difference between a 30-round mag and three 10-round mags, then why would anyone have invented 30-round magazines in the first place. It's even more obvious when you start talking about 75, 100-round drums. When Patrick Purdy shot up that school in Stockton (in 1989, which led to Bush Sr.'s import ban on AKs, H&Ks, etc.), he used 75-round drums in his AK and he fired over 100 rounds in 2 minutes. He only had to reload once to do that. With 10-round "post-ban" magazines, he would have had to reload 10 times. That seems like a pretty substantial difference.

I do disagree that bans on stuff like flash hiders, bayonet lugs, etc. are totally dumb. But then again, the VPC did admit this much. They were against the AWB being made permanent in 2004 because they said that they didn't think it was good enough. According to them, the combination of a pistol grip and a high-cap mag is what makes an "assault weapon". Not sure I follow that, either, but whatever.
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  #12  
Old 02-10-2009, 02:43 AM
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While I hate that I can't get any new 30 round mags for any of my guns, doesn't limiting assault rifles to ten round mags kill the danger of them? Now all these guns are 10 shots, so even on full auto these guns have been dampended down. They pretty much pussied-up the coolest guns now, so who cares if they are considered assault weapons?

The dumb thing is you can still buy pre-ban hi-cap mags, so if you buy a mag before the ban, no prob. Totally kills the point, another useless law.

Did you guys know the Browning A5 and Ruger 10/22 were on the assault weapons ban list? WHAT THE HELL? A 10/22 is a 10 shot sporting rifle. The most it every saw action with was personal plinkers who used suppressed ones to kill pigeons in NYC. I mean, if you build up a 10/22 with one of those Krinker/Plinker kits to make it look like a Krinkov assault carbine, then it looks scary but with a 10 round mag, it is still just a .22 (I hate using that term but I'm not talking ballistics so I can use it here).

The A5? A 90 year old 5 shot shotgun, benign as can be, built as a sporting gun by Browning, a lover of sport shooting. I can't even image why it was banned, did the hump back look scary?

If we discuss gun laws here, we can piss and moan all we want but it won't make any difference. Unless by a 1 in a 1,000,000 chance, Joe Biden and Barrack Obama are web surfing and see this and go, "Wow, these guys are right. What were we thinking?" Hell, more like 0 in a million.
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  #13  
Old 02-10-2009, 03:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunmaster45 View Post
While I hate that I can't get any new 30 round mags for any of my guns, doesn't limiting assault rifles to ten round mags kill the danger of them? Now all these guns are 10 shots, so even on full auto these guns have been dampended down. They pretty much pussied-up the coolest guns now, so who cares if they are considered assault weapons?

The dumb thing is you can still buy pre-ban hi-cap mags, so if you buy a mag before the ban, no prob. Totally kills the point, another useless law.

Did you guys know the Browning A5 and Ruger 10/22 were on the assault weapons ban list? WHAT THE HELL? A 10/22 is a 10 shot sporting rifle. The most it every saw action with was personal plinkers who used suppressed ones to kill pigeons in NYC. I mean, if you build up a 10/22 with one of those Krinker/Plinker kits to make it look like a Krinkov assault carbine, then it looks scary but with a 10 round mag, it is still just a .22 (I hate using that term but I'm not talking ballistics so I can use it here).

The A5? A 90 year old 5 shot shotgun, benign as can be, built as a sporting gun by Browning, a lover of sport shooting. I can't even image why it was banned, did the hump back look scary?

If we discuss gun laws here, we can piss and moan all we want but it won't make any difference. Unless by a 1 in a 1,000,000 chance, Joe Biden and Barrack Obama are web surfing and see this and go, "Wow, these guys are right. What were we thinking?" Hell, more like 0 in a million.
Remind me...was the Mini-14 on the list?
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  #14  
Old 02-10-2009, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MT2008 View Post



But reload time is quite important. If there was no difference between a 30-round mag and three 10-round mags, then why would anyone have invented 30-round magazines in the first place. It's even more obvious when you start talking about 75, 100-round drums. When Patrick Purdy shot up that school in Stockton (in 1989, which led to Bush Sr.'s import ban on AKs, H&Ks, etc.), he used 75-round drums in his AK and he fired over 100 rounds in 2 minutes. He only had to reload once to do that. With 10-round "post-ban" magazines, he would have had to reload 10 times. That seems like a pretty substantial difference.
.
Yes, I do agree that reload time is important, but when you see a guy shooting in a crowd with 10 rounders and stops to reload, I'm not going to try to be a hero and jump him before he changes magazines. I don't seriously think it matters with the law as you pointed out that you can get pre ban magazine at any time. Of course physical difference between 30 round mags and 3 10 rounds aside, you still have 30 rounds you can expend at anyone and anything, reload and all. Most people aren't the hero type, you will duck and cover when you see a guy shooting near you, and if he is going on a shooting spree, he will either legally or illegally obtain a higher capacity magazine anyway.
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  #15  
Old 02-10-2009, 07:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Excalibur View Post
Yes, I do agree that reload time is important, but when you see a guy shooting in a crowd with 10 rounders and stops to reload, I'm not going to try to be a hero and jump him before he changes magazines. I don't seriously think it matters with the law as you pointed out that you can get pre ban magazine at any time. Of course physical difference between 30 round mags and 3 10 rounds aside, you still have 30 rounds you can expend at anyone and anything, reload and all. Most people aren't the hero type, you will duck and cover when you see a guy shooting near you, and if he is going on a shooting spree, he will either legally or illegally obtain a higher capacity magazine anyway.
I think the logic is more that people might be able to run away. And if you're in a place with corners and rooms to lock yourself in (i.e. the interior of a school), the delays caused by reloads are substantial. The delays mean that the shooter will likely be unable to get off nearly as many rounds, and therefore, shoot as many people before they escape.

Then there's the matter of a guy with an AK going up against a cop who has a 9mm or .40 S&W handgun that holds 15 rounds. I used to read posts on LE message boards all the time, and I haven't seen a single cop on any of them who likes the idea of shooting it out with a gunman carrying an AK or an AR-15 when his service pistol is all he has. And please note that I hear that from cops who are both pro- and anti-gun.

Also, this is related to AKs, specifically, but...I've told you before I own an AK, right (you can see the picture of my gun on my IMFDB profile)? I own four 30-round mags and a single 10-rounder which I had to buy because the assholes at the range where my Dad and I used to go (back home) didn't allow anything over 10 rounds for rifles. Anyway, when you load an AK mag, you have to "hook" it into place. This is extremely easy and natural to do with a 30-rounder. With a 10-rounder, the motion isn't as smooth, due to the shorter length of the mag, because it's harder to grip it properly. So I can tell you from my own personal experience - reloads are a lot slower with those mags. Again, that applies only to AK mags, but I thought I'd throw that out there.

Last edited by MT2008; 02-10-2009 at 11:39 PM.
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