Heckler & Koch - overrated?

[MT2008]

Originally Posted by Excalibur

Because it's more expensive to make a completely new weapon system than to take an existing design and just giving it a makeover. I mean, the Army spent how much on the XM8 project and it went down the drain. It is much more practical to stick to what soldiers are already used to than to retrain them in something completely new and less expensive than to replace the exisiting weapons the military is already using. Magazine types, ammo type. That's all important.

Well, technically, the XM8 was literally just an effort to salvage something from the failure of the XM29/OICW/SABR project. But the OICW...that program cost a bundle and went nowhere.

[MT2008]

Originally Posted by k9870

The m16 has seen it's time and is being surpassed by more modern weapons. But there is the pointy stick syndrome:

Train a guy to use a pointy stick, he likes it. That pointy stck may save hs life, and he loves it. Over time he believes it to be the ultimate combat weapon. Up to the day he is butchered by iron spears.

The militiary has this syndrome with m4s.

I don't think the "pointy stick syndrome" explains the continued use of the M4. I'm not the biggest M16/M4 fan by any means, but I have always asked the question: If it's really such a bad design, why is it that so many SF units outside of the U.S. use it? If you take a look at the list of countries whose SF use M4s, you'll see a bunch whose countries adopted a newer design as their standard service rifle, and yet the SF still uses M4s instead. The SAS are the best example - even after the huge overhaul that the L85 received from H&K, they still stick to the M4. And likewise, Aussie SF uses M4s even though the rest of the military is issued Steyr AUGs. And while the L85 has a controversial history, isn't there pretty much a universal consensus on the excellence of the AUG?

The same applies to most American SWAT teams. How many SWAT teams in this country use either M4s or some similar derivative nowadays? How many use the G36, or the AUG, or the SCAR, or any other design from Western Europe? Is it really just the fact that Americans are so hung up on ARs? Or do these guys know something that the M4's critics don't?

There may be another explanation for all of this, but the "pointy stick syndrome" idea just doesn't seem to be that explanation.

[MT2008]

Originally Posted by jdun

When I am talking about the M14, G3, and FAL, I am talking about the original configuration. There is of course a lot of different variations, so it is pointless to discuss it other then the original between each design.

The HK416 is really a bad rifle. It's a jam-o-matic. The entire article was a stab at HK marketing department. It was an attack on HK hype machine and their ability to get away with anything including but not limited to complete ultra lies.

Here is a HK416 video without the HK marketing department behind it. Keep in mind the people were testing suppressors and not the HK416.

http://rpginn.com/index.php?option=c...=443&Itemid=39

The M16 DI family are use by the majority of Western SF. The Norwegian military adopted the HK416 yet their SF use Canadian's build M4 DI.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...-with-hk416-2/

The civilian version of the HK416 cost around $4,000 and does not use the standard pivotal pins layout. In other words you can't switch HK upper and lower with standard AR15 upper and lower.

Thanks for the vids. I've heard from a couple of sources (online) now that the forearm has overheating issues. Which makes perfect sense, because the G36 has had the exact same problem for years now, and the piston used in the 416 is almost identical to that of the G36.

Interesting what you've said about Norwegian SF.

[MT2008]

Originally Posted by Gunmaster45

What I think is pathetic is that the XM8 is a G36 in a new plastic shell, so basically they where "improving" on a current design. But it failed. The almighty HK failed, what a shocker. But to all the piss ant gamers who think the XM8 or the HK416 pwns all other guns, it is shocking.

As I've said before, H&K has never landed a major DoD contract. Ever. Back in the early-80s, the HK23 was submitted for the M249 SAW trials (and it lost to the FN Minimi). In the mid-70s, they also made a version of the HK53 that was meant to fit in armored vehicles' firing ports for the XM231 competition, and it lost to a modified version of the M16A1. The P7M13 was cut from the XM9 pistol trials very early on.

Not that I think most of H&K's products would really have a good chance even if they came to America.

[Excalibur]

Originally Posted by Gunmaster45

But to all the piss ant gamers who think the XM8 or the HK416 pwns all other guns, it is shocking.

Well what do you expect? Not a lot of gamers know anything about firearms and the ones that try are greatly influenced in what weapons they used in games. Games "balanced" firearms for the sake of play, they tone down damage when it should be greated, mistake firepower, brass, and other technical details, so anyone who came directly from pure gaming and into firearms interest are just tainted by how games portray any firearm, even ones that are supposed to be "realistic" not to mention any other form of media like movies, tv shows, etc.

[Spartan198]

Originally Posted by Gunmaster45

But to all the piss ant gamers who think the XM8 or the HK416 pwns all other guns, it is shocking.

Then there are the ones who flat out refuse to believe anything negative about them and respond by calling you a fanboy and an outright liar.

As my signature says, I'm a gamer and I apologize for all the morons who think playing Metal Gear Solid gives them actual combat savvy.

[k9870]

Gamers think the "DEAGLE" is the ultmate combat handgun where t is a massive unwieldy jammomatic piece of crap. As for SWAT using m4s, they're allowed hollowpoints, don't need to rely on FMJ. And in a police role, it is easy to do maintenance and keep it running reliably, policemen don't crawl through swamps and walk in sandstorms.

[jdun]

The XM8 is a repackage G36. 40 millions for a new stock and a new name.

New guns are repackaged of old designs that was invented a long time ago.

[k9870]

Saw a SL-8 at cabelas for 2400, used. Seriously, it is so neutered it's not worth half that.

[Excalibur]

I know, and all for the sake of making a Civilian G36 importable to the US, but it still isnt worth it?