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#1
05-10-2018, 05:33 AM
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#2
05-10-2018, 03:44 PM
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I still feel that the DA/SA trigger is pointless given basic level of training and practice to military and police. The DA/SA revolver made sense because it's actually a mechanism that operates the gun to shoot, but the DA/SA semi-auto was invented for the sole purpose of prevent accidents in poorly trained troops and for low quality training for police. I remember when Teddy Roosevelt becoming chief of New York City's police and he made sure every officer under his command is properly trained in their weapons.
__________________
 "There's a fine line between not listening and not caring...I like to think I walk that line everyday of my life." Blessed be the LORD, my rock, Who trains my hands for war, And my fingers for battle Psalm 144:1 “It is always wrong to use force, unless it is more wrong not to.”
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#3
05-10-2018, 08:47 PM
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Once again the Russians have been upgrading 9x19mm handguns and SMGs for their own forces as well. Also, take a look at this recent video of someone letting rip with his full-auto 10mm MP5. That doesn't look like the gun has "uncontrollable recoil" to me. Quote:
Another example of technology making up for lack of training with regards to the P320 is the B&T-made grip module that provides a folding stock for the P320. It's certainly easier to shoot a handgun accurately with a folding stock than without one, but not as easily as one would a compact SMG with a buttstock that can take a proper cheekweld and a foregrip/handguard for the off-hand. Last edited by Mazryonh; 05-10-2018 at 09:28 PM.
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#4
05-11-2018, 04:27 AM
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If DA/SA was so bad, you wouldn't have seen the US Army trying to copy the P38 after WW2, then like 35 years of most everyone that knew better carrying S&W autos, SIGs, CZ's, and HKs. The 1911 fad came later, counter to popular belief, and a lot of the features (beavertail, raised sights, extended slide release and safety) common now to make them more suited as a fighting gun have their roots in customization made for competition shooting rather than a need to put people in the ground
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#5
05-11-2018, 09:48 PM
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I disagree. The US army is notorious for slow in adopting in any new equipment. Look at the the M16's history will tell you. By the time the 80s rolled around, they needed to replace all the 1911s that are still in inventory because they have not bought any new ones and had poorly maintained all of them. They wanted a 9mm to be friendly with NATO and Beretta won the contract because SIG didn't want to spend extra money to build a factory in America and cost more than the 92 that became the M9. The other guns that competed were Smith & Wesson Model 459A, P226, H&K P7M8 and P7M13, Walther P88, Steyr GB and FN ADA. And what do you mean a 5-6 shot gun? By the beginning of WWII, most military forces had adopted guns that were at least 7 to 10 shots with the exceptions being the Russians still using the Nagant revolvers along said the Tokerov or the British Webley The whole concept that with a DA/SA gun, you can carry it "ready to go" doesn't make sense. All handguns are designed to be chambered and carried ready. Most have safeties. Some don't. Glock became the first adopted service weapon to forgo any type of manual safety, which way back in the 1911 days was added at the request of the US Army and not because Browning first designed it. The SIG being the only DA/SA gun that has no manual safety, all other handguns that have ever been adopted for use like the Beretta, HK, all the way back to the Walter P38 that popularized the DA/SA system has a manual safety with the decocker. So when operating those guns, you still need to take the gun off safe and pull the heavy double action. I understand why you might think that adopting the DA/SA is to carry over from revolvers, but that only applies to US law enforcement and it's been a mix of revolvers and semi-autos for many years before recently retiring of all revolvers as main service weapons. Military from all around the world, especially the Germans and Italians that basically invented the DA/SA for semi-autos have long since stopped using revolvers prior to WWI (or popularized the adoption). The Great War was the age of military forces changing from revolvers to semi autos en masse except for a few countries like England. I personally think DA/SA pistols have no place in modern shooting and should be pushed aside from systems like Glock. No manual safety to worry about flicking on or off and no heavy double action trigger and then inconsistently transition to a single action pull, which to the lowly trained soldier or police officer will throw off their first shots. This is a system only meant for people who put time training for it. This is why I don't recommend this type of gun for beginners and advocate training and practice if you want to carry a gun for protection.
__________________
"There's a fine line between not listening and not caring...I like to think I walk that line everyday of my life." Blessed be the LORD, my rock, Who trains my hands for war, And my fingers for battle Psalm 144:1 “It is always wrong to use force, unless it is more wrong not to.”
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#6
05-12-2018, 05:49 PM
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Not sure what your first point is meant to be since I basically said "untrained+SAO=carrying hammer down (regardless of whether or not chamber is empty)", and that for a SAO handgun you have exactly 2 options, of which one might not like either, as compared to the plethora of ergonomic options with DA/SA (and now striker guns but I was more talking about BEFORE they became so ubiquitous)
The US Army is indeed slow, but if the money had been there in 1955 (remember, the Korean Armistice had just been signed so the US was just coming out of a war, and the M14 was just then being adopted, among other new, costly, developments), there's a good chance there would have been a switch to a 9mm DA/SA, be it the S&W X100, the Colt T4, or the High Standard T3, the impetus for this being the Walther P38. From everything I can tell, though, from WW2 to the end of Vietnam, it really seems to me that anyone that could had a DA revolver or DA/SA pistol, then out of those remaining that were issued sidearms, a significant amount were plainly issued a .38 DA revolver (Colt, S&W, Ruger later on). From 1947 all the way through 1985 adoption of the M9, every time the US military looked at new handguns, they were to be 9mm; I don't think it was specifically to appease NATO. The 5-6 shot comment refers to the fact for most of the previous century, if you did not want a single action pistol, your options were either a 5 or 6 shot revolver OR a DA pistol. You forget we're not just talking about military sidearms, but also those of the police, who in the US went DA revolver->DA/SA pistol->striker, with most private duty pistol purchases being DA revolvers and DA/SA pistols (such as the Beretta 92 series, S&W 2nd and 3rd gen autos, Ruger P series, and SIG's P22x series) before striker fired guns dominated everything. You can't really consider a gun ready to fire if you have to take additional actions to make it shoot, past pulling the trigger. Also keep in mind the 1911 in military service always had a small, easily missed safety, and the BHP was generally carried with nothing in the chamber and the hammer down. I don't think that really counts as "ready", especially under stress or if you need to be quick. At least with a (military, semi auto) rifle, the safety is usually big and/or doesn't require you to shift your grip at all. And with a DA/SA, decocking is done as part of loading the gun, and can be skipped if you're reloading during a course of fire/combat, as opposed to having to be done after drawing, before you can shoot It's disingenuous to say that DA/SA pistols have to have the safety removed to fire since you are not intended to carry them with the safety on; the safety on a DA/SA is only for decocking and storage, unlike an SAO, for which it's required if there's a round in the chamber. As for safety-less DA's besides the SIG not having been adopted, the HK offerings with LEM triggers, Walther P99 and PPQ, Canik whatevers in use by Turkish police, and the Beretta 92G beg to differ. To put it in plain English since you seem to think otherwise, DA/SA PISTOLS ARE MEANT TO BE CARRIED ON "FIRE", ROUND IN THE CHAMBER, HAMMER DOWN. Just because the gun goes on Safe when decocking doesn't mean it's supposed to stay that way, you put it on Fire before holstering. To assert otherwise would be like saying you should carry a revolver with the hammer back just because it's possible. Just because you can, doesn't mean you are meant to or even should DA/SA is super easy, all you have to do is decock and put the gun back on fire when you load it, which takes less than a second and generally has a HUGE button or lever to do so. As for the first shot being a little different, that doesn't really matter all that much, and if it throws someone off they still have 7-20 rounds in single action to put into the aggressor. In any case, if someone can't handle that, they're probably not going to be able to handle remembering to take the gun off safe as they draw (SAO), reloading with a speedloader under stress (revolver), learning trigger discipline (all, but most important with striker guns based on how often people ND them), or unloading the gun before pulling the trigger to disassemble (striker). And for people supposedly well versed with handguns, if they can do any of the above but not learn how to operate and shoot a DA/SA, maybe they're not nearly as well versed as they thought (see: 9/10 people that complain about DA/SA, slide mounted safeties, polymer guns, anything that isn't a 1911) and would benefit from a trip to a range that rents handguns just to familiarize themselves with guns different than what they prefer. TL;DR: just because it isn't a Glock or 1911 doesn't mean it's bad, go shoot different guns
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#7
05-12-2018, 05:56 PM
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All this being said, I personally like the P320 better than the Beretta 92
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#8
05-15-2018, 06:05 PM
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I think had the US Army not had their budget gutted post WWII, they would have been getting new 1911s instead of keeping the old ones in inventory until the 80s. There's accounts that the 1911s were in rough shape and that was one of the deciding factors to get a new one by the 80s. They could have easily adopted the Browning Hi-Power like the British but like with the FAL vs the M14 thing, America wanted to be "different" and Beretta won that contract anyway.
The 1911 still is the longest service sidearm in the US military and it was hard for the old school to abandon the .45 caliber in favor of 9mm. It was a political choice to go with the "new" DA/SA design I highly doubted the US Army would have adopted the Colt T4 since it had no trigger guard.
__________________
"There's a fine line between not listening and not caring...I like to think I walk that line everyday of my life." Blessed be the LORD, my rock, Who trains my hands for war, And my fingers for battle Psalm 144:1 “It is always wrong to use force, unless it is more wrong not to.”
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