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  #51  
Old 05-13-2010, 08:38 PM
Kinzer Kinzer is offline
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Personally, I think there should be two gun laws. No guns for convicted violent felons and no guns for the mentally incompetent. Other than that everything should be fair game. 100 round magazines? No problem. Full-auto? Yep. Heat-seeking exploding rounds? Why not. Shall not be infringed is written there for a reason.
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  #52  
Old 05-13-2010, 10:55 PM
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Originally Posted by MoviePropMaster2008 View Post
I was talking about on U.S. Soil. I don't follow (nor care) about criminal incidents abroad. Sorry. Criminal activity abroad SHOULD NOT be a driver of American gun control laws. I know the idiots in the Media (and Mexican Govt) are trying to imply that light machine guns, rocket launchers and grenades are 'easily' attainable in U.S. gun stores, which is complete bullshit. But that's a recent (and pathetic) development. Good thing you're talking to Maryzohn, rather than me .... when I see guys spouting the "oh so elitist European line" about Americans being "gun crazy", their credibility with me goes to zero. Remember that I have been directly injured by gun control, the loss of thousands (more) of revenue, operating expenses, etc. is nothing to sneeze at.
Well, yeah for you it's a job, but I'm just an average guy.
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  #53  
Old 05-14-2010, 03:53 AM
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Well, yeah for you it's a job, but I'm just an average guy.
Okay, so what does THAT mean? You support gun bans?
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  #54  
Old 05-14-2010, 03:56 AM
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No, I mean it hurts you more than it hurts me and I'm a guy who loves guns
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  #55  
Old 05-14-2010, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by MoviePropMaster2008 View Post
I was talking about on U.S. Soil. I don't follow (nor care) about criminal incidents abroad. Sorry. Criminal activity abroad SHOULD NOT be a driver of American gun control laws.
Maybe not, but that doesn't mean we can ignore these incidents.

Also, the IRA aren't just "criminals"; they're a bunch of ski mask-wearing terrorist thugs who want to make Ireland into some Third World socialist hellhole. I'd hope you would rather not see them succeed.

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Originally Posted by MoviePropMaster2008 View Post
I know the idiots in the Media (and Mexican Govt) are trying to imply that light machine guns, rocket launchers and grenades are 'easily' attainable in U.S. gun stores, which is complete bullshit. But that's a recent (and pathetic) development.
Yes, absolutely. Everyone knows that the Mexican government is full of shit, anyway (scapegoating us for their gun problem is an easy way out for them).

But I find it annoying that I see pro-gunners who are trying TOO hard to deny that ANY guns used in Mexico come from the U.S. I see weapons being recovered in Mexico that clearly could not have come from anywhere besides a U.S. FFL - like the PS90 carbines, or AR-15s with "post-ban" features. The "90%" figure is an obvious exaggeration (derived from terrible statistical practices), but that doesn't mean there aren't a lot of guns coming from the U.S.

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Originally Posted by MoviePropMaster2008 View Post
Good thing you're talking to Maryzohn, rather than me .... when I see guys spouting the "oh so elitist European line" about Americans being "gun crazy", their credibility with me goes to zero. Remember that I have been directly injured by gun control, the loss of thousands (more) of revenue, operating expenses, etc. is nothing to sneeze at.
I know, it does suck. That being said, the AEAA is working hard to prevent stuff like this from happening, and you guys can probably weather the storm if (God forbid) anything happens to the rest of us. I mean, let's face it - as bad as British gun control laws are, the movie armorers in the U.K. are not nearly subject to the same regulations as the rest of the population. That's why "Black Hawk Down" was done with Bapty & Co weapons.

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Originally Posted by Kinzer View Post
Personally, I think there should be two gun laws. No guns for convicted violent felons and no guns for the mentally incompetent. Other than that everything should be fair game. 100 round magazines? No problem. Full-auto? Yep. Heat-seeking exploding rounds? Why not. Shall not be infringed is written there for a reason.
Although I disagree with Maryzohn's cheap shot at the Constitution, I do think that using the 2nd Amendment to justify any and all resistance to gun control is not a particularly convincing argument. If you really want to follow the original intent of the 2nd Amendment, then you should want to see the U.S. military disbanded and replaced by a decentralized Swiss-style militia system. I know plenty of radical Libertarians and Constitutionalists who hold precisely this opinion. But I doubt they represent the mainstream pro-gun, let alone conservative, position in the United States.

Last edited by MT2008; 05-14-2010 at 04:58 PM.
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  #56  
Old 05-16-2010, 12:09 AM
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Maybe not, but that doesn't mean we can ignore these incidents.
Yes we can. They're bad, but they should not have any bearing on what law abiding AMERICANS are doing in our own country.
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Originally Posted by MT2008 View Post
But I find it annoying that I see pro-gunners who are trying TOO hard to deny that ANY guns used in Mexico come from the U.S. I see weapons being recovered in Mexico that clearly could not have come from anywhere besides a U.S. FFL - like the PS90 carbines, or AR-15s with "post-ban" features. The "90%" figure is an obvious exaggeration (derived from terrible statistical practices), but that doesn't mean there aren't a lot of guns coming from the U.S.
Or they could be any of the number of privately own firearms that have been stolen and spirited into the black market. Again, I must call BS on that one. The argument that law abiding gun owners and American gun stores are in any way meaningful way responsible for the criminal acts of the Cartel thugs (who BTW, still prefer their military weapons) is an erroneous theory and should never be given ANY traction whatsoever.
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you guys can probably weather the storm if (God forbid) anything happens to the rest of us.
Nope, they bankrupt us by making us 'exempt' but we will be forced to pay thousands of dollars YEARLY for "special permits" to continue to do what we were doing for nothing back in the day. Also tell that to ALL the businesses that won't do business with California EVEN THOUGH Armorers are exempt by law. They don't care. With California being so business unfriendly and so many run away productions, weathering the storm from a legal standpoint is pretty much pointless when they financially make it impossible. Again, it is unfortunate by I see a few of my friends in the biz who are happy that so many of their 'competition' is leaving the field. I think that's dangerous. Onerous regulations have a way of staying around forever. But then I'm biased for reasons you all know
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  #57  
Old 05-16-2010, 10:53 AM
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The problem with modern society is that the crazy people make the sane people look crazy, too. That problem extends to gun control as well. You've got crackpots like Randy Weaver and militant extremist group like Hutaree that all clearly believe in the Second Amendment but take it to the extremes by stockpiling full-auto belt-fed machine guns, anti-tank weapons, explosives, and so on.

You've got nutcases who believe that any form of centralized government is a direct resurrection of the Third Reich, that everything in the world from a war overseas to spilling their milk in the mornings is some New World Order conspiracy indicating that the "men in black" are out to get them, and most of these people wouldn't hesitate to reenact Ruby Ridge or Waco at even the slightest provocation and, in all honesty, more than likely don't care who gets caught in the crossfire.

The point I'm getting at here is that those people make mentally-stable, reasonable firearms enthusiasts like us look like radical extremists when we're not and we pay for it with harsher and harsher firearm restrictions.

Sorry if this sounds like an incoherent rant, but it's a thought that just popped into my head.
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  #58  
Old 05-16-2010, 04:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MoviePropMaster2008 View Post
Yes we can. They're bad, but they should not have any bearing on what law abiding AMERICANS are doing in our own country.
Maybe not, but at the very least, it's our responsibility to crack down on the people who are selling the weapons to the IRA (which we've mostly done). Furthermore, what's important is that the IRA demonstrated what can be done by terrorists with Barrets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MoviePropMaster2008 View Post
Or they could be any of the number of privately own firearms that have been stolen and spirited into the black market. Again, I must call BS on that one. The argument that law abiding gun owners and American gun stores are in any way meaningful way responsible for the criminal acts of the Cartel thugs (who BTW, still prefer their military weapons) is an erroneous theory and should never be given ANY traction whatsoever.
Nobody is saying that law-abiding gun owners are "responsible" for cartel violence. I am a law-abiding gun owner, and I am sure as fuck not responsible for the acts of cartel thugs.

That being said, you're kidding yourself if you think that straw purchases made by legal firearms buyers, and illegally transferred to Cartel henchmen, are not taking place. I lived in Texas for a short time (while I was an IMFDB member), and many of the FFLs over there have expressed concern about Mexican cartel gunmen acquiring weapons from them. Everyone knows that some guns being used in Mexico are coming from American FFLs, particularly the Five-Sevens and PS90s. Those guns aren't being stolen at all; they're being purchased new-in-the-box from FFLs by straw buyers, who get paid by the cartels to acquire weapons for them.

I don't think denying this fact (and it is a fact that should be obvious to any American gun owner who looks at recovered Mexican weapons caches) is going to make us look good. You seem to think that pointing this out is somehow tantamount to calling for more gun control laws (which it's not).

Quote:
Originally Posted by MoviePropMaster2008 View Post
Nope, they bankrupt us by making us 'exempt' but we will be forced to pay thousands of dollars YEARLY for "special permits" to continue to do what we were doing for nothing back in the day. Also tell that to ALL the businesses that won't do business with California EVEN THOUGH Armorers are exempt by law. They don't care. With California being so business unfriendly and so many run away productions, weathering the storm from a legal standpoint is pretty much pointless when they financially make it impossible. Again, it is unfortunate by I see a few of my friends in the biz who are happy that so many of their 'competition' is leaving the field. I think that's dangerous. Onerous regulations have a way of staying around forever. But then I'm biased for reasons you all know
Well, again, that's why we have the AEAA now. But I'm pretty surprised that ANYBODY in the biz could see it as a good thing. Given the inter-connectedness of the armorers, it seems ridiculous that anybody could think of this in terms of monopolizing the market.

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Originally Posted by Spartan198 View Post
You've got nutcases who believe that any form of centralized government is a direct resurrection of the Third Reich, that everything in the world from a war overseas to spilling their milk in the mornings is some New World Order conspiracy indicating that the "men in black" are out to get them...The point I'm getting at here is that those people make mentally-stable, reasonable firearms enthusiasts like us look like radical extremists when we're not and we pay for it with harsher and harsher firearm restrictions.
I'm not even sure you can say that these "nutcases" are all that divorced from the mainstream. The idea that bigger government is always part of some Marxist conspiracy runs pretty deep in the pro-RKBA movement in America. Plus, look at how many people on this board love to fantasize about the Chinese, or whoever else, invading America (something that I've explained is basically impossible). Sometimes, I think these people actually miss the Cold War because it means they'll never get to experience a real-life "Red Dawn". Also, the rise in firearms sales after Obama's election is not coincidental - besides the (not-so-legitimate) fears of stricter gun control, a lot of gun owners have convinced themselves that his presidency is the first step to the People's Republic of America.

Of course, there's a difference between having retarded fantasies and Waco/Ruby Ridge. But I do think that more often than not, the RKBAers are their own worst enemy.

Last edited by MT2008; 05-16-2010 at 04:34 PM.
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  #59  
Old 05-16-2010, 04:56 PM
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I think I've said enough of about my own views, so I'm giving this a rest.
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  #60  
Old 05-17-2010, 03:48 AM
Kinzer Kinzer is offline
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Most if not all gun control laws only affect law-abiding citizens and as a result are useless at stopping crime. Closing the gun-show "loophole" won't do anything and neither will magazine capacity restrictions. And flash suppressor and pistol grip bans definitely aren't going to do anything.
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