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Old 11-06-2011, 11:59 AM
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Default Standards for firearm specifications on gun pages

The standard on most pages is as follows

Quote:
==Specifications==
''(1949-present)''

'''Type:''' Assault Rifle

'''Caliber:''' 7.62x39mm

'''Capacity:''' 10, 30, 40-round box magazines, 75-round drum magazine.

'''Fire Modes:''' Safe/Full-Auto/Semi (600 RPM)
However some other pages include this information but they also include weight, length, barrel length, muzzle velocity. Personally I do not believe in including information (besides the years of manufacture, type, caliber, capacity, and fire modes) . When you add information like weight, barrel length, muzzle velocity, and other items like that it becomes too encyclopedic and imfdb is not a gun encyclopedia. The original 5 specifications provide a snapshot ;and can help identify errors in a film as well.(like how years of manufacture can identify anachronisms, etc.)

Thoughts?
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Old 11-06-2011, 12:03 PM
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Length is relevant, since it has to do with the gun's actual physical appearance (if anything, it's more relevant than fire modes for anything but semi / burst / auto variants). Weight is kinda iffy but it's part of a general description of the firearm, which is allowed under the rules.

I'd agree things like muzzle velocity, barrel length and so on are going over the top, but the "TMI" guideline is about including pages and pages of material on a gun, not a couple of additional measurements.
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Old 11-06-2011, 12:11 PM
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The only thing that the rules currently state about specifications is that they are brief. I do not see length as relevant because you can see length at a glance. It's not like you can look at the length and go into the film and measure it with a tape measure. That is why I see length as unnecessary.
I see fire modes as necessary. An example being that in many films the Steyr SPP is always portrayed in films in full auto while in the unmodified form it is a semiautomatic firearm. Another example being the M16A2 having only burst and semiautomatic yet it is always portrayed as firing on full auto.
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Old 11-06-2011, 12:21 PM
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Length does allow the size of a gun to be roughly gauged; for example, based on the height of the actor holding it (if you're willing to BS it a little from Da Vinci's notes on Vitruvius* you can use any part of him if you know his height, even; for example, the length of an actor's arm is roughly his height multiplied by 0.375), or if it's in a rack with other weapons you can gauge the length of one by the lengths of the others. It's also useful if there are versions of varying length.

As I said, fire modes are only useful in certain situations. A manually-operated weapon would never really need that column, but it's always there anyway. In much the same way, length is potentially useful in IDs. It should also be noted that the rules caution against descriptions being too brief. I think year / type / length / weight / calibre / capacity / fire modes is a reasonable compromise between too much and too little. According to the rules we should also have a field for country of origin in there somewhere. Things like barrel length, effective range, rate of fire (except auto RoF as part of fire modes), action, muzzle velocity, sights and so on I'd agree with dropping on pages where they're present. Though clicking around, a lot of pages have no statistics at all.

Also, a lot of pages don't have any standards for fire modes; for example, some list safe as a mode while others do not. Are we just covering fire selector positions, or do we include "safe" on anything which has a safety?

Edit: Probably the best solution would be a template with fields to fill out; that way people wouldn't be tempted to add extra specs because there'd be nowhere to put them.

*Figure drawing, in case you're wondering why the hell I know that

Last edited by Evil Tim; 11-07-2011 at 11:45 AM.
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Old 11-08-2011, 06:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil Tim View Post
Length does allow the size of a gun to be roughly gauged; for example, based on the height of the actor holding it (if you're willing to BS it a little from Da Vinci's notes on Vitruvius* you can use any part of him if you know his height, even; for example, the length of an actor's arm is roughly his height multiplied by 0.375), or if it's in a rack with other weapons you can gauge the length of one by the lengths of the others. It's also useful if there are versions of varying length.
I have never identified a firearm through it's length, always through it's features. Or quite simply how it looks. Even if you did use Da Vinci's method of measurement it would be an estimate/ guess and it is basically wrong. So there is no point in length really.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil Tim View Post
As I said, fire modes are only useful in certain situations. A manually-operated weapon would never really need that column, but it's always there anyway. In much the same way, length is potentially useful in IDs. It should also be noted that the rules caution against descriptions being too brief. I think year / type / length / weight / calibre / capacity / fire modes is a reasonable compromise between too much and too little. According to the rules we should also have a field for country of origin in there somewhere.
I have to disagree with firemodes in that I believe it is useful. There are several firearms that look like they could be automatic but are single shot in their standard out of the box form (examples, Claridge/Goncz Hi-Tech, TEC-DC9, AA AP-9, SP-89, HK 94, Steyr SPP, Bruggert & Thommet TP9, Enfield L1A1, and numerous others) I also believe manually operated firearms should have it as there are firearms that look like they are automatic but are manually operated (examples Barrett M95, Blaser R93, Benelli M3, and the XM26 - MASS underbarrel shotgun)

I thing country of origin is unnecessary and will add clutter. However it could be implemented maybe by having a small flag icon like on wikipedia, or just having the country of origin in the firearm description.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil Tim View Post
Things like barrel length, effective range, rate of fire (except auto RoF as part of fire modes), action, muzzle velocity, sights and so on I'd agree with dropping on pages where they're present. Though clicking around, a lot of pages have no statistics at all.
I agree, it's too encyclopedic. Also alot of pages do not have statistics because there is no set template in the rules. Some People simply do not add stats.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil Tim View Post
Also, a lot of pages don't have any standards for fire modes; for example, some list safe as a mode while others do not. Are we just covering fire selector positions, or do we include "safe" on anything which has a safety?
Theres no standards but I refer to the M16 & AK-47 page as the standard and put the selector switch options. Also keep in mind some firearms do not have safeties.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil Tim View Post
Edit: Probably the best solution would be a template with fields to fill out; that way people wouldn't be tempted to add extra specs because there'd be nowhere to put them.
Good idea

Last edited by AdAstra2009; 11-08-2011 at 07:00 PM.
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  #6  
Old 11-09-2011, 08:48 AM
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We did recently have a firearm ID discussion to do with length; it's how we established that that HMG that the infiltrator Terminator uses in Terminator couldn't be an M1919 as the old ID claimed (comparison of the reciever versus Charles Bronson holding an M1919 in Death Wish 3). I'd say the minimum information about a firearm should include the three major dimensions (length, weight, calibre) anyway.

I'm not saying firemodes aren't useful, don't get me wrong on that, just that they're situational in use for ID'ing.

Country of origin you could probably work into the introduction. "[Weapon] is a [country]-designed [weapon type]" (ie "The M16 is an American-designed assault rifle").
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