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Old 02-20-2010, 01:05 AM
Gunman69
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Default SIG Sauer P220R vs Beretta 92FS

I'm sure most of us are familiar with John McClane's choice of weapons in the "Die Hard" film series. In the first three films, he carries a Beretta 92FS, but in the fourth film he carries a SIG Sauer P220R. So my question is: what do you all think is a more suitable weapon for McClane?
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Old 02-20-2010, 02:56 AM
Yournamehere Yournamehere is offline
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For continuity's sake he should have kept the Beretta. He is a movie character and in most cases they tend to keep their firearm as it's part of who they are (Harry Calahans .44 Magnum, anyone?)

Now from a technical or realistic standpoint, the Beretta still wins. Bruce Willis is left handed, which makes John McClane left handed, and the SIG series are pretty much right handed guns, whereas the Beretta is a lot more ambi freindly. The Beretta also holds a lot more shots, and what's interesting is that if you watch all the Die hard movies, he doesn't reload often in the early ones (they are either "off screen" or he has a magical Beretta mag that never runs out of bullets, or he just rarely expended all 16 shots). Whether or not this is a difference in the times where it was just movie magic or deliberate, we will never know but I'll assume overall it was just because he had 16 shots and frequently had reloads off screen.

Either way, within the first few minutes of the fourth film, he ends up using his P220R and reloading several times in Justin Long's apartment, all of which are incredibly difficult being he is under fire, and left handed. Having 8 or 9 shots doesn't help either as it makes these difficult reloads more frequent.

Overall the Beretta is a better gun as it is better for left handed shooters and people who require lots of shots for suppressive fire or duty, two things John McClane, being a cop and an action movie icon, desperately needs.
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Old 02-20-2010, 03:46 AM
ManiacallyChallenged ManiacallyChallenged is offline
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Well, reloading does look super cool.
When I first saw DH4, I didn't realize he was having trouble getting the empties out of his SIG. I thought it was some stylized reload.
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Old 02-20-2010, 05:10 AM
Yournamehere Yournamehere is offline
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I just rewatched it and he really shakes the crap out of the gun to get the magazines out, but that could just be a shaky hand due to fear. I also counted his shots. His first magazine fired around 15 shots, his second fired the true 8 rounds, and his last one around 20. Guess the capacity thing is shot to shit, but then again my comments are based in the real world. I think they switched to the 220R because it looks more cutting edge and modern (thanks to the rail) and that was one of the major themes in the new Die Hard movie. All the same, for alefty cop the Beretta is still the better choice.

I also noticed that when he reloaded it looked like he pressed the magazine catch on the right side. Is it possible to switch the mag catch out or is there an aftermarket or custom option for this? I pretty much thought that SIG didn't do this.
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Old 02-20-2010, 05:35 AM
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MT2008 MT2008 is offline
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A couple of things...

(1.) He uses the P220R for less than half the movie. For the rest of the movie, he uses a Beretta PX4 Storm. Why bitch about the P220 but not the PX4? Personally, I'd have rather he kept the 220 for the whole movie, anyway.

(2.) The first "Die Hard" was known for featuring some of the latest, coolest weapons of the time (not only the Beretta 92F, but also the H&K P7M13 and the Steyr AUG). Obviously, "Live Free or Die Hard" is trying to following suit, so they have him use two types of pistols that are much more recent designs. Likewise, the Beretta 92F is now an old, obsolete, and commonplace (in Hollywood) design. So having McClane use it AGAIN just wouldn't be that cool.

(3.) Contrary to what YNH says, the mag releases on SIGs are reversible. It takes a bit more effort than with Beretta, but it can be done. Not only that, but in case you guys have forgotten, we have a picture of the actual P220R that was used in the movie. As you can see, Mike Papac (the movie's armorer) in fact DID reverse the mag release for Bruce Willis so that he could reload his pistol faster:



Quote:
Originally Posted by Yournamehere View Post
For continuity's sake he should have kept the Beretta. He is a movie character and in most cases they tend to keep their firearm as it's part of who they are (Harry Calahans .44 Magnum, anyone?)
Dirty Harry used the Automag instead of the S&W for part of "Sudden Impact", remember?
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Old 02-20-2010, 05:56 AM
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Well for a character like James Bond who has used a PPK for several movies and then switched to the P99, it was more to change with the times. A main character can use a signature weapon, but it's always cool to see them use something else.

And about the 92FS, why not give the guy a more "modern" one with rails or a different model that looks more "advance"? There are plenty of Beretta variants of the 92 series
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Old 02-20-2010, 06:10 AM
Yournamehere Yournamehere is offline
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Pfft, why didn't I just look at the page.....

I think he stole the Px4 from someone, so it wasn't "his", the 220R was his initial carry gun, which is what we are discussing.

I never gave thought to what guns have reversible mag releases (other than the Beretta which is nearly famous for it) which is something more or less out of sight out of mind for a right handed shooter. Nowadays I find more and more guns that are capable of ambi-releasing or swapping of the button. I figured that SIGs being a modern design could do it but I never recalled any actual examples. You learn something every day.

I pretty much saw the lastest Die Hard film as a technological showcase, but now that you mention it, the first two do the same (can't say much for the 3rd sadly). I guess it's a theme of the series and not just this new movie then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MT2008 View Post
Dirty Harry used the Automag instead of the S&W for part of "Sudden Impact", remember?
That's not really the same as the change in Die Hard 4 (why won't anyone say Live Free or Die Hard? heheh). We have a character, "Dirty" Harry Calahan, who uses the same gun throughout his career (including the movie where he uses the Automag, and the one after) who decides to use a different gun while on vacation, and a character who changes his service sidearm altogether.
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Old 02-20-2010, 06:27 AM
Yournamehere Yournamehere is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Excalibur View Post
Well for a character like James Bond who has used a PPK for several movies and then switched to the P99, it was more to change with the times. A main character can use a signature weapon, but it's always cool to see them use something else.

And about the 92FS, why not give the guy a more "modern" one with rails or a different model that looks more "advance"? There are plenty of Beretta variants of the 92 series
The entire feel of James Bond films have changed since the early days. Before it was more fantastic with regard to the espionage and gadgetry that was going on or being used. The modern films while still movies with a fair amount of movie magic and physics wreckage, still, overall, project things a modern Secret Agent would do. The gun should change to fit that.

Modern 92 versions are relatively ugly looking and really aren't used anywhere. Besides, it's still a change from the original 92F/FS he used (and I'm talking the exact gun or guns he used, like we have on the site).

The main force behind the weapon and motif changes are just the times we live in and the people we've become. With modern resources like the internet (also Mythbusters) we can figure out the truth, and as a result our disbelief is not as easily suspended and we can and will point out what is real (or possible) and what's not. Moreover we thirst for realism in movies and games and so the producers try to supply that along with modernized action, which is where new high tech guns and equipment come from. We just expect more than mumbo jumbo now.
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Old 02-20-2010, 07:59 AM
Mauser Mauser is offline
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To me the worst change was not that McClane went from using a Beretta to a SIG, it was that the movie went from R to PG13. What use is John McClane if he can not exclaim "Yippee-ki-yay, motherfucker!", while spilling 33 gallons of badguy blood. Sure he said it in the PG13 movie but wasnt muffled by a cough or something.
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Old 02-20-2010, 02:28 PM
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It always seemed to me that SIGs were getting to be more and more common in movies than other pistols and were becoming the new Beretta.
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