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  #71  
Old 09-10-2010, 05:15 PM
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funkychinaman funkychinaman is offline
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There's too much to quote, so again, I ask, why bother spending all that time practicing using something that won't be used that often in combat? If LE can be bothered to train to use 10mm as their PRIMARY weapon, why would servicemen train to use it as a BACKUP?

If you're going to give them a foregrip, then why even settle for a pistol?

When I say cops get to shoot for free, I mean they don't have to be members or pay any guest fees. We don't sell ammo there anyway.

And as far as I know, there wasn't a winner in the JCP competition.
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  #72  
Old 09-11-2010, 02:37 AM
Mazryonh Mazryonh is offline
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Originally Posted by funkychinaman View Post
There's too much to quote, so again, I ask, why bother spending all that time practicing using something that won't be used that often in combat?
Okay, maybe next time I'll use fewer sources. Were you at work when you first read that post?

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Originally Posted by funkychinaman View Post
If LE can be bothered to train to use 10mm as their PRIMARY weapon, why would servicemen train to use it as a BACKUP?
Because thanks to their short barrel lengths, pistols are undeniably deficient in their ballistics. To get their full potential, you really need to go for a pistol-caliber carbine. Of course, you could always go with more powerful cartridges, but the fact remains you waste a lot of the powder's energy the shorter the barrel gets, most of the time. Muzzle flash is just the visible signature of the powder's energy being wasted on useless light and heat rather than being directed to the ammunition. So to me the 10x25mm round is a good compromise between the capacity of the "wonder nines" and the stopping power but limited materials penetration of the .45 ACP. I've already gone over the round's advantages already (longer range, better energy at 100 yards than the .45 ACP has at the MUZZLE, better cover penetration, similar capacity to 9x19mm handguns)--having those handy when you're forced to use your pistol could definitely save you from becoming another "terrorist kill statistic." Your female MP friend could certainly use a less anemic pistol if the situation called for it.

Every time I watch the "Hurt Locker" scene where Sergeant James walks up to a VBIED driver and slowly puts his Beretta 92 to the driver's forehead, I'm reminded of this video which depicts how well properly loaded 10x25mm rounds can penetrate auto glass, even when they're Winchester Silvertips (a form of hollow point bullet which expands the moment it hits hard cover, but in this case had enough energy to go past the glass and make a deep hole through the catching material). If Sgt. James was using a Glock 20 instead, he could have popped the VBIED driver's noggin without putting it through the open window had the driver proved threatening, assuming the driver was not using a dead man's switch for the bomb.

The examples I linked to in an earlier post show that even those who are short and small are perfectly capable of handling "larger-caliber pistols" (a somewhat relative term) well, assuming they get their mindset and "combat reactions" right.

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Originally Posted by funkychinaman View Post
If you're going to give them a foregrip, then why even settle for a pistol?
I meant to ask why such a nifty feature isn't present on more pistols. Usually when features like that only show up on a few models it's because a patent is involved (like the FN F2000's unique forward casing ejection system, which would be really nice to have on bullpup rifles everywhere). I thought you, or someone else reading that post, might have known.

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Originally Posted by funkychinaman View Post
And as far as I know, there wasn't a winner in the JCP competition.
But in cancelling the program, isn't it akin to the competition organizers declaring that "Everyone lost"? I don't think everyone who competed was so incompetent they couldn't meet the objectives. The HK45 seems to have some good reviews, for instance.

Last edited by Mazryonh; 09-11-2010 at 07:26 PM.
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  #73  
Old 09-11-2010, 05:35 PM
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funkychinaman funkychinaman is offline
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No, I just meant I didn't want to quote that whole block of text.

I don't think the Hurt Locker scenario is a very likely one. A more likely scenario would involve someone with a rifle.

I think once you add a foregrip, you acknowledge that it's no longer a handgun. How many handguns have foregrips? (And the Beretta 93 is a machine pistol.) Why not a folding stock while we're at it? (I'd love to see someone make a modern version of a Mauser C96. I think that would make both of us happy here.)

As for JCP, I'm not saying none of them were good enough, just that the military never specified which one was the best. All of the candidates got good reviews.
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Old 09-11-2010, 08:21 PM
Mazryonh Mazryonh is offline
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Originally Posted by funkychinaman View Post
I don't think the Hurt Locker scenario is a very likely one. A more likely scenario would involve someone with a rifle.
Except I brought up that situation in the Hurt Locker to show how some poor sods are only issued a pistol in the military (or only have one on hand in a dangerous situation) and how difficult it would be for the 9x19mm or the .45 ACP round to penetrate the cover provided by an average automobile, or even cover that isn't particularly thin (like plywood or drywall).

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Originally Posted by funkychinaman View Post
Why not a folding stock while we're at it? (I'd love to see someone make a modern version of a Mauser C96. I think that would make both of us happy here.)
Actually, I've seen advertisements for detachable/folding stocks for Glock 18 pistols. From what I've read the Glock 20 is not that much larger than the Glock 17/18, so producing a detachable/folding stock for a Glock 20 shouldn't be too difficult. That, combined with a Glock 20 using a 6-inch barrel or something similar could make for an excellent ersatz pistol-caliber carbine that would allow an LEO or military personnel like your female MP friend to put the hurt out to unarmoured perps/terrorists out to 100 yards with good materials penetration.

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Originally Posted by funkychinaman View Post
As for JCP, I'm not saying none of them were good enough, just that the military never specified which one was the best. All of the candidates got good reviews.
And that makes the decision to cancel the JCP twice even stranger.
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  #75  
Old 09-12-2010, 02:53 PM
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Rockwolf66 Rockwolf66 is offline
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Originally Posted by Mazryonh View Post
Actually, I've seen advertisements for detachable/folding stocks for Glock 18 pistols. From what I've read the Glock 20 is not that much larger than the Glock 17/18, so producing a detachable/folding stock for a Glock 20 shouldn't be too difficult. That, combined with a Glock 20 using a 6-inch barrel or something similar could make for an excellent ersatz pistol-caliber carbine that would allow an LEO or military personnel like your female MP friend to put the hurt out to unarmoured perps/terrorists out to 100 yards with good materials penetration.
Just go with a PDW if you are going for 100m shots. I like the 10mm too but one has to think about the end user. A PDW is alot handier than a pistol in situations where the guns come out. As somenone once noted a PDW is as easy to manuver as a pistol but has much better ranged accuracy and much better penatration.
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  #76  
Old 09-12-2010, 06:24 PM
Mazryonh Mazryonh is offline
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Originally Posted by Rockwolf66 View Post
Just go with a PDW if you are going for 100m shots. I like the 10mm too but one has to think about the end user. A PDW is alot handier than a pistol in situations where the guns come out. As someone once noted a PDW is as easy to manuver as a pistol but has much better ranged accuracy and much better penatration.
I suppose that would depend on the PDW in question. You can holster an MP7 (something good for a cop), you can't do the same for an FN P90 or a KAC PDW (though the last two can be slung). Firing the last two one-handed is hardly optimal, while you could do so reasonably well with an MP7 which can transform into a machine-pistol variant for one-handed firing. Too bad about that recent report which greatly criticized the 4.6mm round in favour of the 5.7mm round, though--was HK's quality control for its PDW ammunition just worse compared to FN's?

There's also the problem of the stopping power of these PDW cartridges in FMJ (and how in some cases they provide too much penetration in a LE context). While I'm sure all versions of PDW cartridges have hollow-point or other similar adaptations for better stopping power against unarmoured targets, military personnel have to abide by the Hague Convention. Given that the OpFor in this "low-intensity conflict" never wears body armour and the 10x25mm round's effectiveness in FMJ (otherwise why would it be a good handgun hunting round for medium-sized game?) but better range and energy retention than the .45 ACP, a Glock 20 could be a fine backup weapon when you have to use it (or when a pistol is all you're issued).

Here's one of the "Glock to PDW" conversions I mentioned earlier that includes a buttstock. I would prefer something like the return of the MP5/10 though. And if the Russians can turn the 9x19mm round into a PDW round with special powder and bullet configurations, then surely they can do better with the 10x25mm round which has more case room to work with and a harder-hitting bullet. Could be a step to making the infamous Pulse Rifle's ammunition a reality, at least in cartridge dimensions and armour-piercing capability.

Closer to the original topic, does anyone here own any of the pistols that were candidates for the JCP tests? How do the users here find them?
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