The Lord of War comes to the U.S.

[MT2008]

Viktor Bout (the Russian arms dealer who inspired Nicolas Cage's character Yuri Orlov in the movie "Lord of War") has just been extradited to the U.S. He arrived in NYC yesterday:

http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/11/17/...Top+Stories%29

I also recommend the latest blog post by Douglas Farrah (who wrote the book "Merchant of Death", which is about him):

http://www.douglasfarah.com/

So, what do y'all think?

[Excalibur]

Is he going to get off like in the movie?

[MT2008]

Originally Posted by Excalibur

Is he going to get off like in the movie?

That's what I had in mind. Obviously, it's embarrassing to the U.S. government that (A.) they actually hired him to fly weapons into Iraq (for use by the new Iraqi Army and the Sunni militias we armed in Anbar), and (B.) the CIA actually dealt with him in Afghanistan even though he was known to be a Taliban supplier. But in this day and age, the past two administrations have had so many foreign policy fuck-ups in the War on Terror that this one probably won't get any more attention. There's nothing he can say that would embarrass the U.S. government any more than they've embarrassed themselves already - contrary to what "Lord of War" would have you believe.

On the contrary, I think getting him tried and convicted would be extremely beneficial to the U.S. For the current administration, putting Bout on trial would be another way for Obama to claim that the rule of international law works. It would also let him brag that he can fight a counter-terrorism war better than his predecessors who failed to deal with Bout even while he was selling arms to militants and terrorists that have killed Americans (A.G. Holder is already making claims of this nature).

So the short answer is, probably not. If he was going to get away clean, his best chance was while he was still in Thailand and the Russians still had some leverage (the Thai government tries to keep good relations with us and the Russians simultaneously, so they were in a difficult position when the Russians insisted they not extradite Bout). Now that he's in the U.S. and being tried in Federal court, it's all over for him.

Of course, this doesn't mean he's necessarily going to get the punishment he deserves (death by lethal injection, if I had my way). He'll probably get some sort of deal if he testifies before a CT committee in Congress and provides information that could help us. But he will be looking at a long prison term and the loss of his business and fortune.

[S&Wshooter]

Originally Posted by MT2008

(death by lethal injection, if I had my way).

In favor of just a slap on the wrist, eh?

[BurtReynoldsMoustache]

Originally Posted by S&Wshooter

In favor of just a slap on the wrist, eh?

So he sold guns to people antagonistic to our national agenda, so what? It's not like he's even an American citizen, he has no loyalty to us. This is like holding gun stores accountable for the actions of their customers, just on a grander scale.

[S&Wshooter]

Originally Posted by BurtReynoldsMoustache

So he sold guns to people antagonistic to our national agenda, so what? It's not like he's even an American citizen, he has no loyalty to us. This is like holding gun stores accountable for the actions of their customers, just on a grander scale.

Selling arms to people who really want every man, woman, and child in America to die should get him a heavier punishment than waiting around in jail for 10-30 years and then a painless death if he hasn't already died of natural causes

[BurtReynoldsMoustache]

Originally Posted by S&Wshooter

Selling arms to people who really want every man, woman, and child in America to die should get him a heavier punishment than waiting around in jail for 10-30 years and then a painless death if he hasn't already died of natural causes

What you're saying then is that he is responsible for the attitudes and intentions of his customers. It's not like he had a specific anti-American agenda, he's just a businessman, a neutral player, just antagonistic as he was beneficial. Anyway, in the business of killing implements, it's generally accepted that your wares will be used to kill people, it's the nature of the trade.

[MT2008]

Originally Posted by BurtReynoldsMoustache

So he sold guns to people antagonistic to our national agenda, so what? It's not like he's even an American citizen, he has no loyalty to us. This is like holding gun stores accountable for the actions of their customers, just on a grander scale.

No, it's not like holding gun stores accountable for their customers' actions at all. It's one thing for an FFL to sell a gun to a person who passes the NICS and shows no sign of being dangerous, who then uses the gun to kill somebody. Then the dealer has done nothing wrong or illegal (although personally, if I were an FFL and I sold a weapon that was used in a homicide, I would feel pretty bad about it).

What Bout has done is the equivalent of an FFL selling weapons repeatedly to fugitives who are wanted for multiple murders, when he knew exactly who they were and what they intended to use the weapons for. Any FFL who did that would go to jail, and likewise, an international arms dealer who sells to people like Mullah Omar or Charles Taylor deserves the same (or worse) punishment. He has to be held accountable for what he's done, and personally, I'm happy that it's us and not some disorganized bureaucratic international body that took custody of him.

[BurtReynoldsMoustache]

Originally Posted by MT2008

No, it's not like holding gun stores accountable for their customers' actions at all. It's one thing for an FFL to sell a gun to a person who passes the NICS and shows no sign of being dangerous, who then uses the gun to kill somebody. Then the dealer has done nothing wrong or illegal (although personally, if I were an FFL and I sold a weapon that was used in a homicide, I would feel pretty bad about it).

What Bout has done is the equivalent of an FFL selling weapons repeatedly to fugitives who are wanted for multiple murders, when he knew exactly who they were and what they intended to use the weapons for. Any FFL who did that would go to jail, and likewise, an international arms dealer who sells to people like Mullah Omar or Charles Taylor deserves the same (or worse) punishment. He has to be held accountable for what he's done, and personally, I'm happy that it's us and not some disorganized bureaucratic international body that took custody of him.

The rules apply to Mr. FFL because he is a United States citizen operating within the United States of America. Bout is a Russian citizen operating almost everywhere except the United States, and even then he still did business with the United States government with their full knowledge of who he was and what he did.

I guess the thing that bothers me is not that they're going after him, but that Bout is being handled by the civilian criminal justice system. I find the implications of the government claiming jurisdiction over the entire world to be quite chilling. I don't see any reason why this couldn't be handled the old fashioned way.

[MT2008]

Originally Posted by BurtReynoldsMoustache

The rules apply to Mr. FFL because he is a United States citizen operating within the United States of America. Bout is a Russian citizen operating almost everywhere except the United States, and even then he still did business with the United States government with their full knowledge of who he was and what he did.

I know that. It's a metaphor. I assumed you were doing the same when you compared Bout to an American FFL in the first place?

Anyway, there are international laws regulating arms sales, too. Not all of Bout's sales violated internationl law, but some did - including the sale of RPGs and SAMs to Marxist FARC rebels, which is what he's being charged with. FARC is designated a terrorist organization by the U.S., EU, and many other countries, which means that selling them weapons is illegal. Especially since we have him on record telling his "customers" that the weapons he had to offer them would be ideal for shooting down U.S. Black Hawk helicopters.

The bottom line is, if you sell weapons to people who you know are prohibited from owning them, you get in trouble. This is true in both U.S. and international law. That's what Bout did, and that's why he's facing charges.

Originally Posted by BurtReynoldsMoustache

I guess the thing that bothers me is not that they're going after him, but that Bout is being handled by the civilian criminal justice system. I find the implications of the government claiming jurisdiction over the entire world to be quite chilling. I don't see any reason why this couldn't be handled the old fashioned way.

What do you mean by "the old fashioned way"?

Bout is going through the American criminal justice system because he was caught in a DEA operation, and charged by the DoJ. If he had been caught by someone else (Interpol, for instance), he would have gone through the appropriate system. But we caught him, so we get to prosecute him.