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  #21  
Old 08-29-2010, 05:55 PM
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I agree with most of that, but the SS was actually part of the Nazi party, even before they were in power.
So? As I pointed out before Oskar Schindler and John Rabe were Party members too as were a lot of people before the war.

And the Nazis were not thought to be as evil as they were BEFORE the war too. Remember that Americans gladly did the Nazi salute to honor visiting German dignitaries in the 1930s.

Remember the funerals for the victims of the Hindenburg. Newsreel footage show thousands of American well wishers doing the "Nazi style" salute. Being associated with the party in the 30s wasn't that big of a deal to most people. Only people who knew that pogroms and other evil things were being done under the auspices of the party's philosophy were aware of such thing and they were rare.

People view the NSDAP through the prism of 20/20 hindsight AFTER WW2, rather than view the NSDAP as people did BEFORE the war.
  #22  
Old 08-29-2010, 08:55 PM
Jcordell Jcordell is offline
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So? As I pointed out before Oskar Schindler and John Rabe were Party members too as were a lot of people before the war.

And the Nazis were not thought to be as evil as they were BEFORE the war too. Remember that Americans gladly did the Nazi salute to honor visiting German dignitaries in the 1930s.

Remember the funerals for the victims of the Hindenburg. Newsreel footage show thousands of American well wishers doing the "Nazi style" salute. Being associated with the party in the 30s wasn't that big of a deal to most people. Only people who knew that pogroms and other evil things were being done under the auspices of the party's philosophy were aware of such thing and they were rare.

People view the NSDAP through the prism of 20/20 hindsight AFTER WW2, rather than view the NSDAP as people did BEFORE the war.
Another irony. Many in the U.S.A. who were against the NSDAP before the war were looked upon with suspicion. Charlie Chaplin pissed a whole bunch of people with The Great Dictator for example. Many agreeded with Lindburgh. It was felt that the anti-NAZI's were just trying to get the U.S. into another war. Also it was suspected that many of the anti-NAZI's were Communists.

After WWII memories changed. I've read some periodicals published during the mid-30's.Many voiced cautious support for Hitler and found Churchill to be something of a warmonger. Very enlightning. Like somebody else said it's complicted.
  #23  
Old 08-29-2010, 09:15 PM
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Charlie Chaplin pissed a whole bunch of people with The Great Dictator for example.
I love that movie.
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  #24  
Old 08-29-2010, 11:42 PM
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So? As I pointed out before Oskar Schindler and John Rabe were Party members too as were a lot of people before the war.

And the Nazis were not thought to be as evil as they were BEFORE the war too. Remember that Americans gladly did the Nazi salute to honor visiting German dignitaries in the 1930s.

Remember the funerals for the victims of the Hindenburg. Newsreel footage show thousands of American well wishers doing the "Nazi style" salute. Being associated with the party in the 30s wasn't that big of a deal to most people. Only people who knew that pogroms and other evil things were being done under the auspices of the party's philosophy were aware of such thing and they were rare.

People view the NSDAP through the prism of 20/20 hindsight AFTER WW2, rather than view the NSDAP as people did BEFORE the war.
So you guys still think of OJ Simpson as just a HOF running back?

You're trying to make the case for Nazism by pointing out the only two good members? Yes, people did view Nazism different before the war. If you've ever watched "Olympia" by Leni Riefenstahl, many teams gave Nazi salutes when they passed the reviewing stand. (US athletes did not, I should point out.) I don't dispute this. But you cannot ignore what they did after the war. And this is what we're talking about here. For ever one John Rabe or Oskar Schindler, who stuck their necks out to save the lives of innocent people, there are a dozen Klaus Barbies and Joachim Peipers who ended the lives of innocent people. Yes, Oskar Schindler was a good guy, and who were the people he was trying to save his Jews from? Other Nazis, and more specifically, the SS. Taking into account what happened during the war is not hindsight, it's the big picture. Yes, the SS was muscle for a political party, and that political party ordered them to murder millions of innocent people.

Here's the argument I made on the "Schindler's List" discussion page. "Here's my logic: After the death sentences were handed down at the Nuremberg trials, the Allies denied requests by the condemned to be shot by firing squad, their reason being, firing squads were for soldiers, and hanging was for criminals, and they wanted to ram home the fact that these men were criminals. Therefore criminals ≠ soldiers. According to the International Military Tribunal, SS = criminals. Thus, using substitution, SS ≠ soldiers."

And finally, I know it's not an infallible resource, but under the SS page on wikipedia, the following are the catagories under which they are listed (emphasis mine): "Categories: Nazi SS | 1925 establishments | Defunct law enforcement agencies of Germany | Military wings of political parties | Nazi organizations | Terrorism in Germany | The Holocaust | The Holocaust in Germany | Nazi Germany"
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  #25  
Old 08-30-2010, 12:55 AM
BurtReynoldsMoustache BurtReynoldsMoustache is offline
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You're trying to make the case for Nazism by pointing out the only two good members?
Nobody's trying to make a case for National Socialism.
  #26  
Old 08-30-2010, 01:24 AM
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Nobody's trying to make a case for National Socialism.
Hey, it sounds pretty ugly when I point it out for what it is, isn't it? I'm trying to call a spade a spade and I'm facing opposition?
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  #27  
Old 08-30-2010, 01:27 AM
BurtReynoldsMoustache BurtReynoldsMoustache is offline
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Hey, it sounds pretty ugly when I point it out for what it is, isn't it? I'm trying to call a spade a spade and I'm facing opposition?
You're confusing a drive for historical accuracy with being a nazi sympathizer.
  #28  
Old 08-30-2010, 04:23 AM
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I AM trying to argue for historical accuracy, which means not giving criminals an honor that the International Military Tribunal refused to grant them in 1946. I'm also trying to differentiate between REAL German soldiers, airmen and sailors who did fight for their country instead of for the glory of the Nazi party, REAL German soldiers, airmen and sailors who HATE being lumped in with the SS. The SS were criminals, not soldiers. That is not political rhetoric, that is not historical revisionism, that has been their legal standing since 1946. If you have a problem with that, take it up with history and the IMT. You were the one who said used the words "Nazi sympathizer," not me.
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  #29  
Old 08-30-2010, 04:54 AM
BurtReynoldsMoustache BurtReynoldsMoustache is offline
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Originally Posted by funkychinaman View Post
I AM trying to argue for historical accuracy, which means not giving criminals an honor that the International Military Tribunal refused to grant them in 1946. I'm also trying to differentiate between REAL German soldiers, airmen and sailors who did fight for their country instead of for the glory of the Nazi party, REAL German soldiers, airmen and sailors who HATE being lumped in with the SS. The SS were criminals, not soldiers. That is not political rhetoric, that is not historical revisionism, that has been their legal standing since 1946. If you have a problem with that, take it up with history and the IMT. You were the one who said used the words "Nazi sympathizer," not me.
Did you even read the original post, or do you assume anything that doesn't immediately demonize Nazis is white supremacist propaganda?

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Originally Posted by MoviePropMaster2008 View Post
So I cringe when IMFDB users describe a German WW2 soldier as "a Nazi Soldier". That's like calling ALL American GIs "Democrat Soldiers" as the American administration immediately before and after the war (from Roosevelt to Harry Truman) was in the hands of the Democratic Party.
This should sum it up for you.
  #30  
Old 08-30-2010, 07:13 AM
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Hey, it sounds pretty ugly when I point it out for what it is, isn't it? I'm trying to call a spade a spade and I'm facing opposition?
No but you're being INCREDIBLY MYOPIC. As I stated before, there were plenty of Waffen SS units, especially the Panzer divisions, which fought just like Heer units. There was no difference, especially on the Eastern Front. Don't use the post war condemnation of the SS as proof. Even though the disdain was justified it was still politically motivated. The winners of WW2 really wanted to crush any vestige of the Third Reich into the mud.

You're confusing the SS units who were occupation troops and death camp staff with combat units that fought on the front and you seem to be hysterical about this point. Get over it.
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