G-Men weapons

[SPEMack618]

So....I got this idea for a shot story that I'm currently crafting the outline for.

1951. The NKVD, after realizing the USSR's foolish error in allowing the UN to pass a resolution allowing the use of UN forces in the ROK, is seriously trying to stem the support for the ROK by whatever means possible, including sabotage, assasination, and kidnapping.

Being that they are attempting this in North America, it falls to the G-Men under Hoover to stop them.

I'm thinking of having a plucky five man band assigned to the case of one specific NKVD hit squad, which of course culminates in a fire fight of epic proportions.

I'm thinking principle players will be the five feds, a local hick sheriff, and four State Police men.

Weapons I know I want used are Government Models in both .45 ACP and Super .38, Colt Detective Specials, S&W Heavy Dutys, Winchester '97s, Ithaca '37s, Winchester '07s, and maybe a BAR and M-1928A1 or two.

Any thoughts?

[Mandolin]

Would you consider the M-1 Garand or the M1/M1A1/M2 Carbine? Anyone going to bring a scoped Springfield M1903?

FBI: 1x BAR/Colt Monitor (or, if you want to be realy crazy, an AN/M2 in Stinger configuration), 2 Winchester 1907s, 1 M-1928A1, and 2x Ithaca 37s, one of which is sawnoff and carried by a G-man with a Winchester '07. M1911s all round, with Detetective Specials as backup.

Sheriff: Winchester '97, possibly a '94 as well. S&W Model 10/15/27.

State Police: 2x M-1928A1s, 1x Ithaca 37, 1x Winchester '07. Possibly a Lewis gun that they had sitting in the armoury from Prohibition-era shootouts with moonshiners(What state, anyway?) if you want real firepower. 1-2 M1911s, 2-3 S&W Model 10/15/27.

NKVD: How unobtrusive do they want to be? How many of them? Do they use shotguns?
Blatant(4 guys): 2x PPSh-41s, 1x Auto-5/ Winchester '97/M1 carbine, 1x SVT-40 scoped
If 6-8 guys, add 2 more PPSh-41s, a Mosin-Nagant 91/38 carbine, and a BAR/Lewis gun/MG34(Lend-Lease stuff)

Semi-blatant(4 guys) 2x PPS-43, 1x shotgun/M1 carbine, 1x M-1C/D Garand
For 6-8 guys, add 1x BAR/Lewis, 3x M1 Carbines or Mosin-Nagant M91/38

Unobtrusive(4 guys): 2x M1928A1s, 1x shotgun, 1x M-1C/D Garand
For 6-8 guys, add 1x M-1928A1, 2x M1A1 (or M2 in M1A1 stocks) Carbines, 1x sawn-off BAR.
As for sidearms, either M1911A1s (Lend-Lease), Walther PP/PPKs, or TT-33s.
Depending on how covert they are, throw in M1/M9 Bazookas, Panzerfausts or, if avalible, RPG-2s.

Do I think too much?

[Yournamehere]

I'd scratch any modern S&W revolver (meaning anything with a number designation or anything not in .38 Special of .45 ACP). They may have been around, but it was at their inception, and an old .38 would have been far more likely to have been used, and a Colt more likely than that. S&W didn't start dominating the market until a while after the Cold War era began, but before that it was relatively balanced between S&W and Colt, if Colt wasn't the winner in the revolver market. If you want names, Colt Official Police and S&W M&P. According to a an archived High Road post, those were the standard issue of the FBI at the time.

I don't know how long any of the long guns you mentioned were issue, like the Ithaca 37, Winchester 1897 or BAR, or remained FBI issue past the prohibition era, the 1907 or the particular Thompson variant. Personally I'd be modest and leave it at two Thompsons, two period rifles of some sort, manually operated or autoloading, and then a shotgun of some sort, I'd say Winchester 1912, a bit more modern and prolific than the often seen 1897. The Ithaca 37 is more of a late 1950's - 1980's shotgun., and that's not including the specific run of the riot variants which may be dated later, though I'm going on what I've seen in various gun auctions and portrayal in media to be honest.

Just a word of advice too, when I pick firearms for something, I don't let something that was just introduced ever make the cut (for example, a Model 19 in 1957). Yes, it was apparently around at the time, but the transition from one gun to another usually takes some time, and generally, people like to fall back on what they know works, in the case of the 1950's, a Colt Government or a .38 revolver, and not a new flashy .357 Magnum. Today's fascination with more powerful calibers tend to lead people to forget that back in the day, it was what had worked and not what was the newest thing on the block that servicemen tended to appreciate.

[k9870]

You could have one of them be a "gun guy" who gets the newest and flashiest thing just to interestingly write about it then have some colts passed around the rest, maybe a take home 1911 with a remington rand/ithaca/union switch or somethin more obscure.

[Excalibur]

My logic is that if it existed at that time period, and if it is possible to get it, it should be in it.

[Mandolin]

On second thought, how about a suppressed Sten for the NKVD? Could the FBI get a Johnson M1941 LMG or are those too rare? The Winchester 1912 shotgun is also a possablility. How about a second sheriff's deputy who either: 1. is a WW2 vet with an M-1 Garand or M1A1 carbine 2. is a motorcyle officer and carries a .38 Super 1911 converted to a machine pistol(like in Public Enemies) due to his being a long ways from backup. The 1911 is carried in a modified shoulder holster and he also has a small revolver and a shotgun/carbine.

I ignored all Russian machineguns in my original post, as they use too much hard-to find ammo. The SVT-40, M91/38, PPSh41/PPS-43 all use Russian ammunition, but either don't use much (the rifles) or the ammo is small and light(the SMGs).

As Yournamehere pointed out the Winchester '07 may be out of FBI service, so you could replace it with M1 Carbines. As for the M1928A1 and BAR, there isn't a replacement, so keep them. The Ithaca 37 came out in 1937, so it's fine. According the the Smith and Wesson page on th main site, the Model 10/15/27 are the only revolvers in .38 or bigger in the time period.

[Yournamehere]

Originally Posted by Excalibur

My logic is that if it existed at that time period, and if it is possible to get it, it should be in it.

The problem is those are two very broad qualifications. For example, today, the Remington 1911R1 exists, and is for sale on the market. Does that mean your local police officer has one? No, I highly doubt it. For one it's not a particularly fascinating gun as was the case of a lot of the guns of the 50's or any era, nor is it probably an approved gun for many agencies, again, something to consider in the era.

As for revolvers again, S&W didn't begin numbering their models until the mid 1950's so technically, none of those models even existed. They had the named counterparts of the day (M&P for the Model 10, K38 "Combat Masterpiece" for the Model 15, and Registered Magnum for the Model 27), but they were not referred to by model number yet. I don't know how common .38/44 was at the time, but it's probably better to err on the safe side and just give him a .38. I think a lot of people hate doing that because .38s reputation today is this weak and wimpy cartridge, but the thing is it's completely in it's element any time before the last 30 years, and for that time it was the caliber of choice for many and carried by just about everyone. I'd also say scratch the Police Positive and go for the more modern Official Police, which fits the date better and is also chambered in .38 Special.

I think some of these ideas are way too into prohibition era and blatantly ripping off prohibition era films, namely Public Enemies. Drum Thompsons and BARs were more of that era than post World War II. As most of us know the final rendition of the Thompson was the M1A1, which I would recommend be the Thompson of choice, unless you find an issued Thompson which better fits the bill. The BAR, while at this time is unmatched in firepower capability, is a very heavy weapon, and I don't believe it was the issue weapon of any police force of the time, nor do I see it filling that role. At the very least it should be an M1 Garand in place of that, if not a simple .30-06 bolt gun. Not sure about M1 Carbines either. Again, this is the FBI in the 1950's, not World War II, so the M1 Carbine may not be an issue/appropriate gun, nor is it a particularly wonderful choice given other weapons you could pick.

Lastly, I understand how it could seem a bit boring to give characters somewhat "generic" weapons and calibers, but on the other end of the spectrum, it's far too blatant and pretentious to give them something way too particular or extravagant. It seems really contrived, as if you're trying to tell your reader "hey, I know a lot about guns" when it probably ends up saying "hey, I tried to place some obscure items in here to make it seem like I know a lot". The machine pistol is a great example of this on both fronts. On one end, it is ridiculously particular, so particular in fact that the only place in history where one was ever noted was in John Dillinger's gang, and that's it. Putting it in one's own writing is an obvious borrowing of the concept from that gun, because that's the only one out there to inspire one to give it to a character. On the other hand, it has been brought into the mainstream know having been used in Public Enemies, so everyone who has seen that film knows about the once fascinatingly obscure machine pistol in .38 Super. This is what puts the final nail in the coffin housing the ability to pay homage to that weapon. It's way too specific, everyone knows about it, and frankly it's not a very effective weapon anyway, so the edginess and cleverness in placing it in the story is completely gone. It's better to give him a generic .38 or .45 that you know an FBI man would have than to force a particular gun on a character, it just makes more sense that way.