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Old 07-08-2011, 08:15 AM
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Default Issue with "PDW" as a weapon category

I've been having a discussion about this with Mazryonh recently, and I have some misgivings about using it as a category for weapons.

The main issue is it's extremely poorly defined. PDW was a marketing term invented by H&K to sell a version of the MP5K with a folding stock. It's since been used to refer to everything from totally normal SMGs (Jatimatic, PP2000) to compact assault rifles (Magpul PDR, XM8 Compact). Granted, there's a "proper" meaning (SMGs firing special AP ammunition), but for every example there's two things called PDWs that don't qualify.

As a result, when pages are listed by weapon type, it allows compact assault rifles and machine pistols to end up in a section that's supposed to be for SMGs. Our own Category:Personal_Defense_Weapon includes four 5.56mm compact assault rifles, the QCW-05 which is available in two pistol cartridge chamberings, and the PP2000 which is a 9x19mm SMG. It makes it hard to say "this is in the wrong category" when we're using a term that means whatever a gun company's marketing department feels like it means.

I suppose we could define exactly what we want it to mean somewhere, but it's really no good as a category if you have to tell people what it means before they understand why only some things called PDWs can go in the PDW section. I personally favour just getting rid of it and putting things in either the pistol, SMG or rifle categories.
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Old 07-08-2011, 12:12 PM
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I agree that axing the PDW category would be appropriate.
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Old 07-08-2011, 04:58 PM
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Yeah, its one of those poorly defined terms that is too broad to use.
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Old 07-08-2011, 07:13 PM
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I say axe the category as well. All the guns listed there fit other, more clearly defined categories anyway. Despite slightly larger caliber, the MP7 and P90 can be lumped into, and effectively are, submachine guns. The PP-2000 is no different from any other subgun. The KAC PDW, despite its smaller round, is no less a compact carbine than the CQBR and G36C are. The L22, HK53, and PDR all fire 5.56x45mm and are equivalent to the CQBR and G36C as well.
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Old 07-09-2011, 02:57 PM
Mazryonh Mazryonh is offline
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Lightbulb Narrowing down an overused label

I'll be the first to admit that the PDW label is overused in some cases, but it can be narrowed down for the purposes of this wiki. For the sake of argument, the HK MP7A1 and the FN P90 will be used as baselines for this.
  1. A true PDW round is an SCHV (Small Caliber, High Velocity) round, usually based on a miniaturized assault rifle round, that was developed from the ground up for PDW usage. This allows for the compactness considered key to a PDW's niche, which is CQB, while retaining the ability to pierce armour rated Level IIIA or lower.
  2. A true PDW, and not just a weapon that fires PDW rounds, has both a stock and a dedicated place to put your off-hand, straight out of the box. This can be a vertical foregrip or a sufficiently-long handguard. This is important since both of those features simplify aiming, an important trait when it comes to CQB or a defensive situation.
  3. A true PDW must be select-fire, or otherwise capable of fully-automatic fire.
A firearm must meet all three requirements to be considered an actual PDW. With these in mind, it's much easier to determine what is an actual PDW and what isn't. Some examples follow.
  • The MP5K-PDW doesn't fit because it doesn't meet requirement 1, despite fulfilling requirements 2 and 3.
  • The G36C, CQBR, HK53, Magpul PDR and other ultracompact 5.56mm NATO carbines don't meet requirement 1 either since the 5.56mm NATO wasn't designed from the ground up for use in a PDW role, and isn't a miniaturized assault rifle round.
  • The PS90 doesn't meet requirement 3, and is just a bullpup SCHV carbine.
  • The AS Val, Groza, and other 9x39mm firearms don't count because they don't use SCHV rounds, therefore not meeting requirement 1. The 9x39mm round was also first used in the VSS Vintorez, definitely not a CQB weapon. Instead, the 9x39mm round is just a specialized assault rifle round that was enlarged from the original 7.62x39mm round.
  • (Machine) pistols firing PDW ammunition don't count because they don't meet requirements 2 and 3.
  • By the same token, the PP-2000 and its armour-piercing configuration of 9x19mm bullets don't meet requirement 1 either because the 9x19mm round wasn't designed from the ground up for the PDW niche, nor is it an SCHV round.
From these premises I would conclude that the the QCW-05 and its variants, along with the MINSAS (chambered for 5.56x30mm ammunition), are in fact PDWs. The QCW-05 uses 5.8x21mm ammunition, which is a miniaturized version of the Chinese 5.8x42mm assault rifle round. This allows it to meet requirement 1, while the rest of the QCW-05's design (along with its variants) allows it to meet the other requirements. Similarly, the MINSAS also meets requirement 1, as it uses a shortened version of 5.56mm NATO ammunition.

Don't get me wrong; if the mods decide to remove the PDW label entirely and lump its entries into the Carbine or SMG categories I'm all for it. I still believe, however, with the tightening of the definition on this site the PDW label could be useful for a specific niche of weaponry, just narrower than some firearm manufacturers would have us believe.
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Old 07-09-2011, 03:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mazryonh View Post
I'll be the first to admit that the PDW label is overused in some cases, but it can be narrowed down for the purposes of this wiki. For the sake of argument, the HK MP7A1 and the FN P90 will be used as baselines for this.
  1. A true PDW round is an SCHV (Small Caliber, High Velocity) round, usually based on a miniaturized assault rifle round, that was developed from the ground up for PDW usage. This allows for the compactness considered key to a PDW's niche, which is CQB, while retaining the ability to pierce armour rated Level IIIA or lower.
  2. A true PDW, and not just a weapon that fires PDW rounds, has both a stock and a dedicated place to put your off-hand, straight out of the box. This can be a vertical foregrip or a sufficiently-long handguard. This is important since both of those features simplify aiming, an important trait when it comes to CQB or a defensive situation.
  3. A true PDW must be select-fire, or otherwise capable of fully-automatic fire.
A firearm must meet all three requirements to be considered an actual PDW. With these in mind, it's much easier to determine what is an actual PDW and what isn't.
Seems like reasonable criteria to me.
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Old 07-09-2011, 04:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mazryonh View Post
I'll be the first to admit that the PDW label is overused in some cases, but it can be narrowed down for the purposes of this wiki. For the sake of argument, the HK MP7A1 and the FN P90 will be used as baselines for this.
  1. A true PDW round is an SCHV (Small Caliber, High Velocity) round, usually based on a miniaturized assault rifle round, that was developed from the ground up for PDW usage. This allows for the compactness considered key to a PDW's niche, which is CQB, while retaining the ability to pierce armour rated Level IIIA or lower.
  2. A true PDW, and not just a weapon that fires PDW rounds, has both a stock and a dedicated place to put your off-hand, straight out of the box. This can be a vertical foregrip or a sufficiently-long handguard. This is important since both of those features simplify aiming, an important trait when it comes to CQB or a defensive situation.
  3. A true PDW must be select-fire, or otherwise capable of fully-automatic fire.
A firearm must meet all three requirements to be considered an actual PDW. With these in mind, it's much easier to determine what is an actual PDW and what isn't. Some examples follow.
  • The MP5K-PDW doesn't fit because it doesn't meet requirement 1, despite fulfilling requirements 2 and 3.
  • The G36C, CQBR, HK53, Magpul PDR and other ultracompact 5.56mm NATO carbines don't meet requirement 1 either since the 5.56mm NATO wasn't designed from the ground up for use in a PDW role, and isn't a miniaturized assault rifle round.
  • The PS90 doesn't meet requirement 3, and is just a bullpup SCHV carbine.
  • The AS Val, Groza, and other 9x39mm firearms don't count because they don't use SCHV rounds, therefore not meeting requirement 1. The 9x39mm round was also first used in the VSS Vintorez, definitely not a CQB weapon. Instead, the 9x39mm round is just a specialized assault rifle round that was enlarged from the original 7.62x39mm round.
  • (Machine) pistols firing PDW ammunition don't count because they don't meet requirements 2 and 3.
  • By the same token, the PP-2000 and its armour-piercing configuration of 9x19mm bullets don't meet requirement 1 either because the 9x19mm round wasn't designed from the ground up for the PDW niche, nor is it an SCHV round.
From these premises I would conclude that the the QCW-05 and its variants, along with the MINSAS (chambered for 5.56x30mm ammunition), are in fact PDWs. The QCW-05 uses 5.8x21mm ammunition, which is a miniaturized version of the Chinese 5.8x42mm assault rifle round. This allows it to meet requirement 1, while the rest of the QCW-05's design (along with its variants) allows it to meet the other requirements. Similarly, the MINSAS also meets requirement 1, as it uses a shortened version of 5.56mm NATO ammunition.

Don't get me wrong; if the mods decide to remove the PDW label entirely and lump its entries into the Carbine or SMG categories I'm all for it. I still believe, however, with the tightening of the definition on this site the PDW label could be useful for a specific niche of weaponry, just narrower than some firearm manufacturers would have us believe.
Surely the PS90 isn't a PDW anyway by dint of being a civilian rifle?
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Old 07-09-2011, 05:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spartan198 View Post
Seems like reasonable criteria to me.
The trouble is, this basically means all "true" PDWs are SMGs firing posh bullets, so we might as well just put them in that category and spare everyone the confusion of dealing with all the other things called PDWs.
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Old 07-09-2011, 05:16 PM
Mazryonh Mazryonh is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Wierd It View Post
Surely the PS90 isn't a PDW anyway by dint of being a civilian rifle?
I was analyzing it based on the fact that is a platform firing PDW rounds (an SCHV round based on miniaturized assault rifle ammunition). It meets the first two requirements I mentioned, but not the third, so it's just a fancy semiautomatic carbine.
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Old 07-09-2011, 09:23 PM
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DHS officially desiganted the p229 as a PDW. And its a 40 caliber compact auto.
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