SIG-Sauer P320 to replace Beretta M9

[funkychinaman]

Originally Posted by Evil Tim

Actually most of the advantages of 9mm in SF and police use are in things like not penetrating walls as much, they don't necessarily want a more powerful round for the work they do with subguns. Also 10mm rounds are over twice as expensive as 9mm.

And if they wanted more power, then there's various AR carbines in 5.56.

Sorry about the sarcasm, but it's like arguing for Betamax at this point. The 10mm Auto had its chance, and for a variety of reasons, no one bit. It's time to move on.

[Mazryonh]

Originally Posted by funkychinaman

And if they wanted more power, then there's various AR carbines in 5.56.

Sorry about the sarcasm, but it's like arguing for Betamax at this point. The 10mm Auto had its chance, and for a variety of reasons, no one bit. It's time to move on.

Betamax? "Be kind, rewind!"

But seriously, aren't you glad electronic trends like Moore's Law don't apply to the laws of ballistics (which are the same as they were in the 1980s and before) and ballistic weapons in general? We still use muzzleloaders, airguns, bows, and even slingshots. Obsolescence in ballistic weaponry isn't quite as cut-and-dry as obsolescence in the IT world. Besides, the infrastructure that once supported Betamax is long gone. 10mm Auto ammunition on the other hand still has existing infrastructure to support it, or infrastructure that could be easily converted to do so.

Here are some interesting links. I don't know if this is current but here's a link saying that the FBI Hostage Rescue Team still uses the MP5/10. I've heard elsewhere that H&K still supplies them with replacement parts.

There's another magazine article here that outlines a couple other reasons why the MP5 is useful in CQB over the M4 and other 5.56mm SBRs. One was the lowered noise level of the MP5, even while unsuppressed, to reduce hearing damage and suppressor wear. Another was that friendly fire incidents with the MP5 were much less likely to be lethal since most kevlar is good enough to stop 9mm rounds, while you need a Level III or Level IV armour plate to stop 5.56mm NATO rounds (and that might not even stop AP versions). The need for AP fire was covered by one or a few members of a team carrying an M4. Yes, this article was written before the adoption of .300 BLK in M4 carbines for subsonic suppressed fire, but I'll get to that shortly.

So there is in fact some evidence that the 10mm in SMG or pistol-caliber carbine form could be a good solution to bridge the capability gap between SMGs and SBRs (i.e., being able to get good midrange performance with ease of suppression with subsonic ammo), most especially in an LEO context where the ability to share ammunition between handguns and SMGs can simplify logistics (and I haven't heard of any .300 BLK semiauto handguns). Being able to shoot through car windshields is also something some 5.56mm NATO loadings have trouble with, whereas 10mm in full-power loadings has less trouble doing so.

There's also the possibility to close the AP capability gap (at least at short range) by loading 10mm ammo with penetrators, just like the Russians did with their 9mm AP loadings. With greater case volume available in 10mm Auto than the 9x19mm cartridge, you could get more effective range while retaining AP abilities than the lightly-loaded and overpressured 9mm AP projectiles can.

[Mandolin]

Originally Posted by Mazryonh

But seriously, aren't you glad electronic trends like Moore's Law don't apply to the laws of ballistics (which are the same as they were in the 1980s and before) and ballistic weapons in general? We still use muzzleloaders, airguns, bows, and even slingshots. Obsolescence in ballistic weaponry isn't quite as cut-and-dry as obsolescence in the IT world. Besides, the infrastructure that once supported Betamax is long gone. 10mm Auto ammunition on the other hand still has existing infrastructure to support it, or infrastructure that could be easily converted to do so.

No one uses that stuff in combat though

Originally Posted by Mazryonh

Here are some interesting links. I don't know if this is current but here's a link saying that the FBI Hostage Rescue Team still uses the MP5/10. I've heard elsewhere that H&K still supplies them with replacement parts.

I may be mistaken, but there's a notable lack of MP5s in HRT hands recently. They're using HK416s or other shorty M4s.

Originally Posted by Mazryonh

There's another magazine article here that outlines a couple other reasons why the MP5 is useful in CQB over the M4 and other 5.56mm SBRs. One was the lowered noise level of the MP5, even while unsuppressed, to reduce hearing damage and suppressor wear. Another was that friendly fire incidents with the MP5 were much less likely to be lethal since most kevlar is good enough to stop 9mm rounds, while you need a Level III or Level IV armour plate to stop 5.56mm NATO rounds (and that might not even stop AP versions). The need for AP fire was covered by one or a few members of a team carrying an M4. Yes, this article was written before the adoption of .300 BLK in M4 carbines for subsonic suppressed fire, but I'll get to that shortly.

"We use 9mm so we don't kill each other" is the dumbest possible reason to use a MP5. Stop shooting each other!

[Spartan198]

Originally Posted by Mandolin

"We use 9mm so we don't kill each other" is the dumbest possible reason to use a MP5. Stop shooting each other!

https://youtu.be/gNMXl9Xj72c?t=2m40s

[Mazryonh]

Originally Posted by Mandolin

No one uses that stuff in combat though.

The point remains that unlike Moore's Law, human bodies have remained as vulnerable as ever to ballistic trauma. That's why killing people with those weapons is just as viable as it was centuries ago.

You might also be interested in how the US Army released an RFI for "Sub Compact Weapons" in 9x19mm on May 2, 2018.

Originally Posted by Mandolin

I may be mistaken, but there's a notable lack of MP5s in HRT hands recently. They're using HK416s or other shorty M4s.

I didn't say that the article was current up-to-the-second.

Originally Posted by Mandolin

"We use 9mm so we don't kill each other" is the dumbest possible reason to use a MP5. Stop shooting each other!

Hey, don't shoot the messenger. We still have NDs with pistols, and "green zone attacks" from people who are recruited and make it somewhere but end up taking out their vendettas against their putative allies and comrades-in-arms.

In other news, there's a lot of recent news articles about organizations adopting the M17 or M18 MHS handgun.

• The USAF and USN are looking to order the M18 version of the P320.
• The USMC is following suit with the US Army and adopting the MHS as well.
• There are also people claiming that the P320 is a "total game changer."

[Evil Tim]

Originally Posted by Mazryonh

Hey, don't shoot the messenger. We still have NDs with pistols, and "green zone attacks" from people who are recruited and make it somewhere but end up taking out their vendettas against their putative allies and comrades-in-arms.

Compromising effectiveness is good because our guys might get hurt by our own weapons, so we should...adopt a more powerful round?

[Excalibur]

Originally Posted by Evil Tim

Compromising effectiveness is good because our guys might get hurt by our own weapons, so we should...adopt a more powerful round?

It's more like mistrust of our troops and instead of training them, it's more cost effective to give them equipment where they rely on the gadget to protect them from accidents?

I still feel that the DA/SA trigger is pointless given basic level of training and practice to military and police. The DA/SA revolver made sense because it's actually a mechanism that operates the gun to shoot, but the DA/SA semi-auto was invented for the sole purpose of prevent accidents in poorly trained troops and for low quality training for police. I remember when Teddy Roosevelt becoming chief of New York City's police and he made sure every officer under his command is properly trained in their weapons.

[Mazryonh]

Originally Posted by Evil Tim

Compromising effectiveness is good because our guys might get hurt by our own weapons, so we should...adopt a more powerful round?

You're forgetting something important. 10mm Auto, unless loaded with penetrators, can't penetrate Level IIIA body armour. The same "just in case our rounds go astray into one of our guys" factor would still apply, assuming "our guys" are all using Level IIIA body armour where their (rifle-resistant) plates aren't covering.

Once again the Russians have been upgrading 9x19mm handguns and SMGs for their own forces as well.

Also, take a look at this recent video of someone letting rip with his full-auto 10mm MP5. That doesn't look like the gun has "uncontrollable recoil" to me.

Originally Posted by Excalibur

It's more like mistrust of our troops and instead of training them, it's more cost effective to give them equipment where they rely on the gadget to protect them from accidents?

I still feel that the DA/SA trigger is pointless given basic level of training and practice to military and police. The DA/SA revolver made sense because it's actually a mechanism that operates the gun to shoot, but the DA/SA semi-auto was invented for the sole purpose of prevent accidents in poorly trained troops and for low quality training for police. I remember when Teddy Roosevelt becoming chief of New York City's police and he made sure every officer under his command is properly trained in their weapons.

I'd also think it's a case using a technological solution to prevent what is in fact a training issue. The current lack of training for handguns used by LEOs is partly a budget issue too. The most likely cause is that the higher-ups feel that having more LEOs on the streets to respond to more calls is more important than making sure every one of them is good enough with their weapons.

Another example of technology making up for lack of training with regards to the P320 is the B&T-made grip module that provides a folding stock for the P320. It's certainly easier to shoot a handgun accurately with a folding stock than without one, but not as easily as one would a compact SMG with a buttstock that can take a proper cheekweld and a foregrip/handguard for the off-hand.

[S&Wshooter]

Originally Posted by Excalibur

I still feel that the DA/SA trigger is pointless given basic level of training and practice to military and police. The DA/SA revolver made sense because it's actually a mechanism that operates the gun to shoot, but the DA/SA semi-auto was invented for the sole purpose of prevent accidents in poorly trained troops and for low quality training for police.

Wrong, it's so training carries over AND so if one doesn't want to be stuck with a revolver, they aren't then stuck with a SAO handgun (of which there are only TWO common designs, the BHP and 1911, compared to the million and a half DA options). DA/SA allows the shooter to carry a gun that's immediately ready to shoot (requiring no fine motor control to make ready like a SAO), that ISN'T limited to just 5-6 shots, and that will have a fairly short trigger after the initial shot. Also with the DA/SA, you don't really need a safety, just decock before you holster; this is better than having to hit a lever before you fire like with a single action pistol, which most people won't remember to do under stress, or will be disregard in favor of carrying the gun hammer down.

If DA/SA was so bad, you wouldn't have seen the US Army trying to copy the P38 after WW2, then like 35 years of most everyone that knew better carrying S&W autos, SIGs, CZ's, and HKs. The 1911 fad came later, counter to popular belief, and a lot of the features (beavertail, raised sights, extended slide release and safety) common now to make them more suited as a fighting gun have their roots in customization made for competition shooting rather than a need to put people in the ground

[Excalibur]

Originally Posted by S&Wshooter

Wrong, it's so training carries over AND so if one doesn't want to be stuck with a revolver, they aren't then stuck with a SAO handgun (of which there are only TWO common designs, the BHP and 1911, compared to the million and a half DA options). DA/SA allows the shooter to carry a gun that's immediately ready to shoot (requiring no fine motor control to make ready like a SAO), that ISN'T limited to just 5-6 shots, and that will have a fairly short trigger after the initial shot. Also with the DA/SA, you don't really need a safety, just decock before you holster; this is better than having to hit a lever before you fire like with a single action pistol, which most people won't remember to do under stress, or will be disregard in favor of carrying the gun hammer down.

If DA/SA was so bad, you wouldn't have seen the US Army trying to copy the P38 after WW2, then like 35 years of most everyone that knew better carrying S&W autos, SIGs, CZ's, and HKs. The 1911 fad came later, counter to popular belief, and a lot of the features (beavertail, raised sights, extended slide release and safety) common now to make them more suited as a fighting gun have their roots in customization made for competition shooting rather than a need to put people in the ground

The reason why people carried the 1911 hammer down is not on a live round or they're stupid because 1911s don't have hammer blocks if you ride the hammer down on a live round. Early US Army SOP with the 1911 was to carry it empty chamber with the hammer down. Later, they changed it to cocked and lock. A lot of Armies didn't trust semi autos even with manual safeties so when the DA/SA was invented, it gave them a hammer block when putting the weapon on safety, which drops the hammer during decock. Exceptions is the British and other countries with the Browning Hi-Power, a single action gun that's only been recently retired from the UK and for some reason, those guys train with carrying in condition 3.

I disagree. The US army is notorious for slow in adopting in any new equipment. Look at the the M16's history will tell you. By the time the 80s rolled around, they needed to replace all the 1911s that are still in inventory because they have not bought any new ones and had poorly maintained all of them. They wanted a 9mm to be friendly with NATO and Beretta won the contract because SIG didn't want to spend extra money to build a factory in America and cost more than the 92 that became the M9. The other guns that competed were Smith & Wesson Model 459A, P226, H&K P7M8 and P7M13, Walther P88, Steyr GB and FN ADA.

And what do you mean a 5-6 shot gun? By the beginning of WWII, most military forces had adopted guns that were at least 7 to 10 shots with the exceptions being the Russians still using the Nagant revolvers along said the Tokerov or the British Webley

The whole concept that with a DA/SA gun, you can carry it "ready to go" doesn't make sense. All handguns are designed to be chambered and carried ready. Most have safeties. Some don't. Glock became the first adopted service weapon to forgo any type of manual safety, which way back in the 1911 days was added at the request of the US Army and not because Browning first designed it.

The SIG being the only DA/SA gun that has no manual safety, all other handguns that have ever been adopted for use like the Beretta, HK, all the way back to the Walter P38 that popularized the DA/SA system has a manual safety with the decocker. So when operating those guns, you still need to take the gun off safe and pull the heavy double action.


I understand why you might think that adopting the DA/SA is to carry over from revolvers, but that only applies to US law enforcement and it's been a mix of revolvers and semi-autos for many years before recently retiring of all revolvers as main service weapons. Military from all around the world, especially the Germans and Italians that basically invented the DA/SA for semi-autos have long since stopped using revolvers prior to WWI (or popularized the adoption). The Great War was the age of military forces changing from revolvers to semi autos en masse except for a few countries like England.


I personally think DA/SA pistols have no place in modern shooting and should be pushed aside from systems like Glock. No manual safety to worry about flicking on or off and no heavy double action trigger and then inconsistently transition to a single action pull, which to the lowly trained soldier or police officer will throw off their first shots. This is a system only meant for people who put time training for it. This is why I don't recommend this type of gun for beginners and advocate training and practice if you want to carry a gun for protection.