Interesting NY Times article on NYPD revolvers.

[SPEMack618]

Originally Posted by MT2008

Even if we buy that men have a natural instinct to defend women (plausible), can they be trained to suppress it? Being in the military requires people to suppress many natural instincts (namely, self-preservation) - why not this one?

See, here is where I disagree.

I'm of the mindset of Colonel Cooper, that man, instinctively, likes to fight. He wants to prove that he is superior. He wants to dominate. He wants to come out on top. He wants to beat other men who are well armed, well led, and well motivated. That's his natural instinct. The Army merely digs it out from the politically correct brainwashing he underwent through years of public schooling.

And I may be way, way off base. I'm simply speaking for myself and my squad of Georgia Army National Guardsman. Hell, we might have liked to fight because we were too dumb to know better.

And I feel that the natural instinct to protect women is as deeply ingrained as the instinct to fight.

I'm not anti-women in the military, I'm anti-women in combat MOSs.

[Nyles]

Originally Posted by SPEMack618

I'm not qualified to speak towards gender integration.

I was a Cav Scout and am currently an Infantry officer. Totally male career fields. And I have problems conceptualizing how a woman could integrate into said units. Especially if we out at a COP for a month straight.

I will share one story that sort of explains my view, and which my sister says is a sign a rampant sexism in America.

Being a Cavalry Squadron, we had organic aviation assets. A Troop of a Apache gunships and a Troop of Kiowa Warrior scout helicopters.

One of the Kiowas was flown by a warrant officer, who was a sorority girl in the real world. And she was also very friendly around us, not to the point of flirtatiousness or anything, but she wanted to know the guys she was flying support for. We cared for her immensely.

And one day, she got shot down in the middle of a firefight. And we went ballistic. Everybody and his battle buddy was wanting to ditch their sector, their overwatch position, whatever and go tear assing across an open field, liberally crossed with heavy Dishka fire, and pull her out of her Kiowa.

No way in hell we'd have behaved that way had it been a dude chopper jock.

I certainly understand that, but I think that, like MT2008 says, that can be overcome, but the only way is for men to get used to serving with women to the point where they understand they're soldiers like any other. My rotation had a young, very attractive, female reserve augmentee from the LSSR serving in one of the PPCLI rifle companies - she probably got hit on a lot at first, but after a few months of going to the strip club with the guys, spitting chew into a pop bottle in the back of the LAV and going weeks without showering, she was just another one of the guys. When you don't segregate, people have a chance to get to know them as fellow soldiers instead of just women, and it changes.

Another similar example is a friend of mine, also from my rotation, who on his first tour when he was still an infanteer, came out of the closet for the first time in the back of a LAV under mortar fire - "F**k it, I don't want to die living a lie. Sgt, I'm gay." He took some shit for about a week, and then the rest of his platoon were standing up for him when the rest of the battalion found out. Point being I think people in general will be pretty open minded if you give them a chance to be.

Don't take this as an argument for political correctness - the army is the army and if you can't do the job then you shouldn't be in it, but there's plenty of straight men out there who can't handle it either. I'm definitely NOT saying the standards should ever be lowered, I just think that women should get the same chance to prove themselves that men do.

No argument on the soldier on soldier rape - anyone in the states hear of Russell Williams, the former commander of CFB Trenton who's currently serving a life sentence for several rapes and two murders. I was in Afghanistan when he was arrested, and we were ordered that he was always to be referred to as Mr. Williams. When he got his dishonorable discharge, they burned his uniforms, shredded his commissioning scroll, and broke his medals, and our only objection is that he's in civilian and not much harder military prison.

Totally unrelated, but were the Kiowa pilots also complete insane on your tour? Seems like every week we had a new C/S Shamus story. Were you with 1-17 Cav? They actually took over Dand district from us at the beginning of 2010.

[SPEMack618]

Originally Posted by Nyles

Totally unrelated, but were the Kiowa pilots also complete insane on your tour? Seems like every week we had a new C/S Shamus story. Were you with 1-17 Cav? They actually took over Dand district from us at the beginning of 2010.

Dude, our Kiowa guys (and girls) we're nuts. In fact, that's how said warrant got shot down, she was down super low putting fire on to bad guys with the pylon mounted .50 gun pod.

No, I was 1-108. But a couple of guys from OSUT wound up in the 1-17.

[Nyles]

Yeah, I refused to believe the story about the Shamus pilot expending all of his ordnance and landing so he could shoot the guy with his pistol - until I saw the AAR.

[S&Wshooter]

Originally Posted by Nyles

Yeah, I refused to believe the story about the Shamus pilot expending all of his ordnance and landing so he could shoot the guy with his pistol - until I saw the AAR.

How to become a Kiowa pilot:

1. Be batshit crazy

2. Demonstrate this

3. Wait until they just give you a Kiowa (you will know how to operate it instinctively)

4. Throw beer bottles and shit at hadjis for fun from your Kiowa until you leave the military

[SPEMack618]

Originally Posted by Nyles

Yeah, I refused to believe the story about the Shamus pilot expending all of his ordnance and landing so he could shoot the guy with his pistol - until I saw the AAR.

There were times when the Scout Troop, which were how our Kiowas were flagged, would be giving us gun support, that I thought I could reach up and touch a skid.

It was nothing to find .50 brass in your gear if they were around.

[MT2008]

Originally Posted by SPEMack618

See, here is where I disagree.

I'm of the mindset of Colonel Cooper, that man, instinctively, likes to fight. He wants to prove that he is superior. He wants to dominate. He wants to come out on top. He wants to beat other men who are well armed, well led, and well motivated. That's his natural instinct. The Army merely digs it out from the politically correct brainwashing he underwent through years of public schooling.

And I may be way, way off base. I'm simply speaking for myself and my squad of Georgia Army National Guardsman. Hell, we might have liked to fight because we were too dumb to know better.

And I feel that the natural instinct to protect women is as deeply ingrained as the instinct to fight.

I'm not anti-women in the military, I'm anti-women in combat MOSs.

First, to make sure we are clear on where I am coming from, you have the right to express your opinion without being accused of bigotry. Your views are based upon legitimate concerns.

I haven't served, so I admit that I don't have any anecdotes like yours. But I did spend enough years rowing when I was in college to know that there are plenty of women who have the instinct to dominate and come out on top. The kinds of women who I saw on the team are, I would think, exactly the kinds of women who would be fine in combat arms jobs (perhaps they wouldn't excel, but they could at least hold their own). If they can carry a Vespoli shell, they can ruck.

I wish k9870 were still here - he was at the U.S. Coast Guard Academy, right? I always found it weird that k9870 was opposed to women in combat, given what I know about his school's oarswomen. When I was in college, I remember CGA had women's varsity crews which were about as fast as my school's men's varsity crews. (Also, during my sophomore year, their freshmen men's boat beat our second varsity boat - which was my boat.) If I were a combat arms officer, I would have taken a platoon of those ladies over the guys from my own boat.

In the end, though, I believe that women in combat should only get the green light provided that there is good, hard data to suggest that this is a good idea (as opposed to progress for the sake of progress). I would never get behind a social engineering program that is not supported by empirical evidence. And I am concerned that Panetta jumped the gun on removing the barriers to women in combat, before sufficient evidence was presented.

But...I suspect that this is still a (rare) case where the forces of liberalism and political correctness are actually right, even if it is for the wrong reasons.

[Jcordell]

UPDATE ELEVEN YEARS LATER: New York Post dated Sept 8, 2015, stated that there are only 214 six-shot .38 revolver carrying officers left on a force of about 35,000.

[funkychinaman]

Originally Posted by Jcordell

UPDATE ELEVEN YEARS LATER: New York Post dated Sept 8, 2015, stated that there are only 214 six-shot .38 revolver carrying officers left on a force of about 35,000.

I don't remember if I was around when you first posted the article, but this jumped out at me:

""It's put me through 20 years, and I'm still alive," said Officer Gregg Melita, 41, who not only carries a Ruger Police Service revolver, but the old "dump pouches," two leather carriers that hold loose cartridges. "This is when guns were guns, and cops were cops," he said. "The new guys don't even know what dump pouches are. They go, 'Hey, what's that hold?' " He chuckled. "'Bullets, kid.'""

I get the appeal of revolvers, I like them myself, but come on, at least use a damn speedloader.

And a DS on an ankle holster? That seems a bit on the heavy side.

[Jcordell]

Originally Posted by funkychinaman

I don't remember if I was around when you first posted the article, but this jumped out at me:

""It's put me through 20 years, and I'm still alive," said Officer Gregg Melita, 41, who not only carries a Ruger Police Service revolver, but the old "dump pouches," two leather carriers that hold loose cartridges. "This is when guns were guns, and cops were cops," he said. "The new guys don't even know what dump pouches are. They go, 'Hey, what's that hold?' " He chuckled. "'Bullets, kid.'""

I get the appeal of revolvers, I like them myself, but come on, at least use a damn speedloader.

And a DS on an ankle holster? That seems a bit on the heavy side.

Back in my detective days (2003-2006) I carried my DS in an ankle holster. Mainly because I wanted to try it. I lasted a month at the longest. Even though the DS cylinder is just .1 inch larger (2015 Gun Digest, page 202) than the five shot cylinder of my Model 49 bodyguard that little bit made for a cylinder that really pressed against my ankle (I used a Galco ankle band) after a few hours and the extra three ounces really made a difference after five or six hours. I was surprised. I returned to my Model 49 after that month. I still own both revolvers, but the Bodyguard gets carried. the DS is a safe queen.

I'm with you. I like revolvers and now own fourteen. No fifteen revolvers. Love the old handguns, but use a speed loader if you're carrying a revolver in the real world.

My herd as of 08/23/15. Sorry for the picture quality.

going to a gun auction tomorrow. Hope to get either a S&W Model 65 3", Colt Model 1917 (45acp) or a S&W Model 520. Smith made 3,000 of the 520 for the New York State Police in 1980 only to have the NYSP cancel at the last minute. It's just the Model 28 Highway Patrolman only with fixed sights instead of adjustable, but it's rare and would make a great addition to my collection. If I get any of those three you know I'll be posting. Wish me luck.