I sure hate America Bashers..... Arghhh.:mad:

[MT2008]

Originally Posted by Ace Oliveira

The thing is, there are palestinians that want peace.

Very few of them, I'm afraid. Moderate Palestinians are few and far in between.

I do agree with you that there are many unsavory elements on the Israeli side (those hardcore ultra-religious settlers creep me out to no end, plus they're obviously not helping). But even if the Israelis behaved absolutely perfectly, I still doubt there would be peace. Antisemitism and a love of martyrdom aren't a problem merely because of Hamas' propaganda; they exist because many Palestinians hold those attitudes, always have and always will. Are you so quick to forget that the Palestinians actually tried to ally with the Nazis in World War II, before Israel existed?

Personally, I think the only thing Israel can do is just kick out the Palestinians, especially in Gaza. They were offered a perfectly reasonable deal and chose to reject it in favor of more war and more bloodshed. They deserve to suffer the consequences.

[Ace Oliveira]

Originally Posted by MT2008

Very few of them, I'm afraid. Moderate Palestinians are few and far in between.

I do agree with you that there are many unsavory elements on the Israeli side (those hardcore ultra-religious settlers creep me out to no end, plus they're obviously not helping). But even if the Israelis behaved absolutely perfectly, I still doubt there would be peace. Antisemitism and a love of martyrdom aren't a problem merely because of Hamas' propaganda; they exist because many Palestinians hold those attitudes, always have and always will. Are you so quick to forget that the Palestinians actually tried to ally with the Nazis in World War II, before Israel existed?

Personally, I think the only thing Israel can do is just kick out the Palestinians, especially in Gaza. They were offered a perfectly reasonable deal and chose to reject it in favor of more war and more bloodshed. They deserve to suffer the consequences.

A good solution would be to build a country just for the Palestinians. Far from Israel. That would take decades though.

[AdAstra2009]

Originally Posted by Ace Oliveira

A good solution would be to build a country just for the Palestinians. Far from Israel. That would take decades though.

But the thing is that's not want the Palestinians want, they want all of Israel.

[MT2008]

Originally Posted by Ace Oliveira

A good solution would be to build a country just for the Palestinians. Far from Israel. That would take decades though.

Why do the Palestinians deserve ANY country? Isn't it pretty obvious that Arabs aren't capable of building countries that are prosperous and democratic? Why do we need another Arab country that will be either (A.) a secular autocracy, or (B.) an Islamic fascist state? There are already enough of those in the Middle East.

I think the only future for the Palestinians is to give Gaza back to Egypt, and the West Bank to Jordan, and be done with it. And the latter part is where, I admit, the ultranationalist Israeli settlers would prove to be as much of a nuisance as the Pals themselves. That, and the fact that the other Arabs (for all of their rhetorical posturing) hate the Palestinians about as much as the Israelis do.

[Ace Oliveira]

Well, Giving Palestine back to Egypt and Jordan seems like a good idea. The problem is there is four million people in there. And if Palestine becomes Jordan and Egypt, what the hell do you think the palestinian extremists are going to do? They are going to start fucking up Jordan and Egypt. They will want independence because they want to go out and fight the Israelis once more.

And for the democratic arab countries. There is Jordan. It's not democratic but the King did say he wants Jordan to be a Democratic country. He took some steps towards democracy. Small steps but steps none the less. It has awesome liberal heads of state. There are problems in the country such as the lack of water and lack of oil but their Nuclear powerplants the Jordanian government is building would help with those problems.

If the protesters in Iran can finally top the Ayatollah and Dinner Jacket, then we would have Iran too.

[MT2008]

Originally Posted by Ace Oliveira

Well, Giving Palestine back to Egypt and Jordan seems like a good idea. The problem is there is four million people in there. And if Palestine becomes Jordan and Egypt, what the hell do you think the palestinian extremists are going to do? They are going to start fucking up Jordan and Egypt. They will want independence because they want to go out and fight the Israelis once more.

The Palestinians will never fuck up Jordan or Egypt, for the simple fact that if they act up, both countries will gladly Black September the Pals' asses into submission. Unlike the Israelis, Arab countries almost never make peace deals with resistance groups within their borders...they simply clamp down upon them ruthlessly, and genocide the populations if the resistance gains popular support.

And as cold as it may sound, I really could care less if that's what happens to the Palestinians. I just can't bring myself to feel a whole lot of sympathy for them, no matter how much I might occasionally find the Israelis detestable.

Originally Posted by Ace Oliveira

And for the democratic arab countries. There is Jordan. It's not democratic but the King did say he wants Jordan to be a Democratic country. He took some steps towards democracy. Small steps but steps none the less. It has awesome liberal heads of state. There are problems in the country such as the lack of water and lack of oil but their Nuclear powerplants the Jordanian government is building would help with those problems.

Jordan is way, WAY away from being a democracy. It is a secular monarchy with a minor facade of democracy laid out on top. If Jordan is the best case you can cite for Arab democracy, you've got a serious problem.

The norm in the Arab world has been gangsters like Saddam and Qaddafi, and that is why I really don't think we need any more Arab countries. Their record doesn't lie. Those people are not capable of building democratic, free societies. They won't be until they (A.) become much more secular, (B.) learn how to educate themselves and build functioning societies, and (C.) stop blaming everyone else (meaning, America and Israel) for their problems.

Originally Posted by Ace Oliveira

If the protesters in Iran can finally top the Ayatollah and Dinner Jacket, then we would have Iran too.

...which, unfortunately, is not going to happen. I respect the bravery of the Iranian protesters, but the unfortunate fact is that they're outnumbered and will never be able to develop into a major revolutionary movement. For every one of the pro-democracy protesters, there are about 20 ultra-conservative Shi'a who support Ahmadinejad and are proud of the Islamic Revolution. Iran, too, is going to need to undergo enormous cultural change before it will become a democracy.

[Ace Oliveira]

Even though i doubt about Jordan going genocide on the Palestinian's asses, i think Egypt would do it.

About Jordan, they are not an democracy, but they are way better than most countries around it.

And Iran, they had a huge cultural change since the revolution. Most of the young adults and teenagers are liberal as hell. That is your cultural Revolution right there. However, the Shia motherfuckers are always there, mostly in the rural areas. Also, after all those protests and all the horrible shit the Iranian Government did to the protesters, no one will want to anything with Iran. Their foreign policy will be worst than it is now, especially here in the United States.

[Spartan198]

Iran, much like North Korea, would make a better sheet of radioactive glass on the ground than it is a sovereign nation...

What happened to the good old days when you could threaten rogue nations with nuclear annihilation if they didn't do what we told them to do? :P

[MT2008]

Let's relax a little bit on the language, please? It's never a good sign when people start cursing at each other.

Originally Posted by Ace Oliveira

Even though i doubt about Jordan going genocide on the Palestinian's asses, i think Egypt would do it.

You act as though it didn't happen already? Although obviously Jordan now is very different from Jordan in 1970. But Arab regimes have repeatedly shown that they really don't mind killing larger number of the Pals than the Israelis ever have, whenever the Pals act up in their own countries. The way that Lebanon dealt with Fatah al-Islam a few years ago is a reminder that this still hasn't changed.

Originally Posted by Ace Oliveira

About Jordan, they are not an democracy, but they are way better than most countries around it.

I know it's a cliche to make this kind of analogy, so forgive me in advance, but...that's like saying that AIDS is better than a malignant brain tumor.

Originally Posted by Ace Oliveira

And Iran, they had a huge cultural change since the revolution. Most of the young adults and teenagers are liberal as hell. That is your cultural Revolution right there. However, the Shia motherfuckers are always there, mostly in the rural areas. Also, after all those protests and all the horrible shit the Iranian Government did to the protesters, no one will want to anything with Iran. Their foreign policy will be worst than it is now, especially here in the United States.

I've told you before, it's not a "revolution" unless it actually brings about change in government. And Iran isn't going to change because of the protesters. Those "Shia motherfuckers" you mentioned are a vast, VAST majority. I haven't done much work on this myself, but I can point you to some very good journal articles by people I know about Iran's demographics and why they favor Ack-mah-whatshisface. And why that won't change anytime soon, no matter how many Nedas get themselves killed facing down the Basji motorcycle thugs.

And the protests aren't going to have any effect on Iran's foreign affairs where it matters...Russia, China, North Korea, and Venezuela will always be open to doing business with them.

[AdAstra2009]

Originally Posted by Ace Oliveira

Most of the young adults and teenagers are liberal as hell.

If that were true than those protests would have been successful.

It's a psychological effect called an "Availability heuristic", meaning that simply because the protests were widely covered in the media -it makes you think that they are the majority even though they are really the minority.