Could the FBI save money by converting their handguns to 9mm?

[funkychinaman]

Originally Posted by Mazryonh

I've heard that the reason why the M9 handgun is being replaced by the US Armed Forces that used it previously is that the M9 frames are wearing out. But does the FBI use their handguns often enough to approach that level of wear?

The article also mentions that many FBI agents have no business being armed, or don't have the field experience (i.e., in on-the-street law enforcement with the possibility of running into violent situations) to use their handguns well without a lot of time they may not have spent training. I don't know how accurate that is.

There is also the possibility of a making a "trade-in and buy another model at a discount" deal with Glock. If the FBI traded in their .40 S&W Glocks for Glock 19s to fit with their caliber change they could save money and still keep the same manual of arms.

I don't know if the federal government would be allowed to do a straight up trade-in deal with Glock. There's a lot of money on the line, and I think the FBI has to solicit competitive bids.

[Excalibur]

If they want to do this on the cheap, it is very simple to get conversions of their existing Glocks into 9mm. It's rather easy if they want to save money. Most likely they can just straight up trade in their current Glocks and most likely resold back onto the civilian market

[Mazryonh]

Originally Posted by funkychinaman

I don't know if the federal government would be allowed to do a straight up trade-in deal with Glock. There's a lot of money on the line, and I think the FBI has to solicit competitive bids.

With so many recent procurement deals going severely over-budget in the American defense industry (just look at the Zumwalt-class destroyers), a trade-in deal or caliber modification program looks much more cost-effective and should have less opportunities for costs to balloon out of control. Or is there a law somewhere that demands that competitive bids always be fielded first? Those bids for all-new handguns aren't likely going to have the same manual of arms and are almost certainly going to cost more than a trade-in deal or caliber modification program.

Originally Posted by Excalibur

If they want to do this on the cheap, it is very simple to get conversions of their existing Glocks into 9mm. It's rather easy if they want to save money. Most likely they can just straight up trade in their current Glocks and most likely resold back onto the civilian market

The trade-in deal is something I mentioned already. But how likely is a "resell to civilian market" move going to happen? The FBI's .40 S&W Glocks could just as easily be returned to Glock for recycling.

[funkychinaman]

R&D on a brand new product is one thing, like the Zumwalts and the F-35, but there are plenty of existing handguns that meet requirements for the FBI to choose from. I don't know if the FBI is legally bound to solicit bids, but they'd get a better price and product if they did, and they'd avoid congressional scrutiny. A congressman from Virginia or Massachusetts can, understandably, make a stink as to why $80 million worth of government contracts weren't going to a SIG-Sauer or S&W factory in his or her district without a competition.

[Excalibur]

You would think the FBI being a domestic agency will have more leeway in how they choice their guns. It sorta went out of control back when deciding on the 10mm and then bitched out and went to .40

[StanTheMan]

^ Keep in mind much of that was a knee-jerk reaction to a bad shootout where afterward they felt every suited agent needed a bad-ass handgun to fight off potential assault-rifle toting suspects when that doesn't really happen much today, and certainly was nonexistent 30 years ago. That said, they are essentially an agency that has to think about having a standard gun for a wide array of agents with varying physiques and sizes, and have to do so under a budget, same as any police department (especially bigger ones).

Anyway, I do believe there is something to the point perhaps not so many feds actually need sidearms, otherwise I think fcm has said it on pretty much all the other points. Perhaps a rechambering could be cheaper, but as fcm said, by this stage, especially if a fair portion of their pistols are pretty worn out, indeed why not just get new ones? And if so, they'll have to do competitive bidding - Gov't agencies are pretty much forced to in most cases, for a number of reasons.

In many cases competitive procurement has many times resulted in getting better product for the money (and in a few rare cases we DID spend less money than we would have, in some form or other). If anything we oughta be stronger on it. Super-badass 'gee-whiz' hardware like the F-35 is hardly a good example. Frankly most of the 'bloat' I think is in our defense spending as a whole, but that's another thing. In the event, I don't think you can compare multi-billion-dollar deals for massive defense hardware that requires R&D and initial engineering/building costs to a simple handgun procurement where there are many models already existing out there that can just be bought; The FBI doesn't need to have a pistol built for them from the ground up to meet their requirements.

[Jcordell]

FBI Special Agents do go out into the field, conduct investigations in the field and interact with some pretty unpleasant people. They were unarmed until the Kansas City Massacre in 1933 and I really don't see the FBI disarming their agents anytime in the near future. Also up until the 1970's (I believe after Hoover died) applicants had to have either a law degree, accounting degree or a technical/science degree to even apply so that hasn't changed. The writer makes some good points, but having just a small select group of agents carry really isn't that realistic. There are numerous sub-offices that fall under a main field office (Boise is under Salt Lake City and there is one agent in Twin Falls and a couple in Idaho Falls). For those small offices how would one determine the ratio of armed to unarmed? Yes the writer makes some good points, but not all of them. As far as the old 40 caliber Glocks. I imagine they'll be cut up and melted down and crushed.

[Mazryonh]

Originally Posted by funkychinaman

R&D on a brand new product is one thing, like the Zumwalts and the F-35, but there are plenty of existing handguns that meet requirements for the FBI to choose from. I don't know if the FBI is legally bound to solicit bids, but they'd get a better price and product if they did, and they'd avoid congressional scrutiny. A congressman from Virginia or Massachusetts can, understandably, make a stink as to why $80 million worth of government contracts weren't going to a SIG-Sauer or S&W factory in his or her district without a competition.

Why would that hypothetical congressman make a stink? If it's a contract from the FBI, it's government/tax money (since the FBI is a government agency) that can end up in the congressman's state any number of ways.

Sole-source contracts are not necessarily bad either. Here's a link I could find on short notice that shows how they can go well:

http://bestfighter4canada.blogspot.c...searching.html

Originally Posted by Excalibur

You would think the FBI being a domestic agency will have more leeway in how they choice their guns. It sorta went out of control back when deciding on the 10mm and then bitched out and went to .40

And now the FBI is going back to 9x19mm.

Originally Posted by StanTheMan

^ Keep in mind much of that was a knee-jerk reaction to a bad shootout where afterward they felt every suited agent needed a bad-ass handgun to fight off potential assault-rifle toting suspects when that doesn't really happen much today, and certainly was nonexistent 30 years ago. That said, they are essentially an agency that has to think about having a standard gun for a wide array of agents with varying physiques and sizes, and have to do so under a budget, same as any police department (especially bigger ones).

I'll agree that one size never fit all, but how much would it hurt if agents could use a Glock in 9mm or 10mm, their preference? I don't think agents are swapping magazines to each other in extended firefights 5 times a week, or some other circumstance that would make magazine commonality between agents a major asset.

Originally Posted by Jcordell

FBI Special Agents do go out into the field, conduct investigations in the field and interact with some pretty unpleasant people. They were unarmed until the Kansas City Massacre in 1933 and I really don't see the FBI disarming their agents anytime in the near future. Also up until the 1970's (I believe after Hoover died) applicants had to have either a law degree, accounting degree or a technical/science degree to even apply so that hasn't changed. The writer makes some good points, but having just a small select group of agents carry really isn't that realistic. There are numerous sub-offices that fall under a main field office (Boise is under Salt Lake City and there is one agent in Twin Falls and a couple in Idaho Falls). For those small offices how would one determine the ratio of armed to unarmed? Yes the writer makes some good points, but not all of them. As far as the old 40 caliber Glocks. I imagine they'll be cut up and melted down and crushed.

Why destroy the old Glocks? Is it kind of like the scene from Lord of War where Nicolas Cage's character says "It was cheaper and easier to buy new weapons than move the old ones back home"?

Would arming only half the agents in a building work, so as long as most of those who are armed are well-qualified, such as HRT-trained personnel?

Instead of disarming their agents, the FBI might want to give them something simpler to use. A pistol-caliber PDW might work well because it would have more points of contact and be easier to aim under stress than a handgun.

Speaking of FBI guns, I remember how in the first X-Files movie, Mulder goes to infiltrate a hostile facility while apparently being unarmed and ill-prepared. I thought that, since the TV series had been filmed in Vancouver for a long time, the production team might have just contacted the same film armourer as the Stargate TV series and given Mulder a touch more firepower for his mission. Something like a suppressed FN P90 (made famous in the Stargate TV series) might have worked well for someone in Mulder's situation. A P90 certainly would have been better than nothing while escaping from the rampaging Alien Colonists in the facility (and he didn't seem to have a backpack to get Scully the necessary clothing needed to survive in the hostile environment outside the facility either).