AK-47 vs M16

[jdun]

Originally Posted by k9870

The military is currently working on an intermediate round, as the 5.56 does not have all that much enrgy to play with. At extreme range it loses power, where 7.62mm DMRs come in. Of course I have heard AR fans say an m4 with an acog is a better DMR....yes, really...And even thin obstacles like sheet metal and wood doors have been known to slow the 556 down enough that it isn't delivering enough energy to reliably take down a bad guy. I cant wait to see an intermidiate round, the 6.5 grendel would be good if it didn't jam up so easy.

The M-855 has more then enough penetrating power to blow the brain out of a Soviet solider wearing a hamlet at 600 yards.

You have tunnel version about stopping power like most arm chair commandos. Here the deal, it's not all about stopping power. If it is then life would be a lot easier. I would be shooting 30mm ammo or greater. I can't because there are trade off. It's not a black and white issue.

You know why US SF don't use .30 caliber rifles? Control because in real life there is no 180 degree firing line. Everything is fluid. The firing line reinforced bad habits.

If you go to any combat school they will teach you how to control your weapon so you don't blow your partners brain up.

You train like you fight. Yes they are using live ammo and explosive.

http://rpginn.com/index.php?option=c...=684&Itemid=39

[k9870]

You have tunnel version about stopping power like most arm chair commandos.

Sorry i prefer more punch. Sinle, precise shots. I dont rely on rate of fire. And in reality you cant hit everything in the head. .22 holes in the chest dont really drop something hyped up on drugs all that effectively, especially in FMJ form. Good ammo like 75gr TAP may give me more faith...as far a FMJ military ammo and war, Id take a .308. In civilian life too.

All m16 arguments go into the m1a vs ar-15 debate.

"5.56 is more controllable in full auto"

Yeah, cause we can all afford or legally buy class 3s.....

"it's not about caliber, itws about shot placement"
In that case, why not 10/22s? ....Oh, so caliber does matter? Taking back your original stateent?

"With 556 you can carry more ammo"

Well, if i drop things with a single shot instead of a 3 round burst, im using less. Dont need as much.

".308s are heavy."

Yep, an extra pound of rifle....big deal.

[Gunmaster45]

Kinetic energy is what is important, commonly called "knock down" power, even though common physics prove bullets don't knock people down. If a bullet stops in the body, it is far more likely to kill you due to the kinetic energy, but if a bullet passes through you, it doesn't hold this same energy. For instance, many people compare 9mm to .45 ACP. A 9mm is a fast moving high velocity round that is quite small. When it hits a person, it doesn't always stop in the body. This is why most people use 9mm hollowpoints. It ensures they stay in the body. The .45 on the other hand is a big, slow moving bullet. When it hits, its kinetic energy is maintained and more damage is done.

I've heard that while .223s are really fast (meaning it would pass through the body) and small, they tend to tumble and shatter in the human body, which does quite a bit of damage. Since it is about 10 rounds more in each magazine for a .223 over a .308, I think I'd stick to .223. But as a Navy Seal once said, "When you give them two in the head and one in the chest, they won't know the difference."

[k9870]

Well, the 223 efffect, shattering is usually close. I remeber hearing m4s only shattered within 120 yards. The m16 fares a little better. An m14 will kill a uy behind a wall though.

[Excalibur]

I've held an M14 and it is heavy as hell compared to an full length M16. It's about endurance on how long you can hold your rifle, aim it while holding it's weight and getting that shot. If the weapon is too heavy, it doesnt matter if it has accurate and heavy punching ammo if you can't pick it up or hold it against your shoulder for too long

[k9870]

Tell that to WW2 vets. Or vietnam vets. My friends dad was hitting 600 yard silouettes with simple ball ammo and iron sights.

[Gunmaster45]

I've known Vietnam vets who are complete BS artists (not to say the guy you know is), for instance, one guy I know was a Marine sniper and every story he told about his service was lifted straight from the biography "Marine Sniper: 93 Confirmed Kills" about Carlos Hatchcock. I can't image how he figured none of us would realize this.

The expression "Don't shoot until you see the whites of their eyes" doesn't apply anymore, I guess, when your popping guys a 600 yards with iron sights.

[jdun]

Originally Posted by k9870

Sorry i prefer more punch. Sinle, precise shots. I dont rely on rate of fire. And in reality you cant hit everything in the head. .22 holes in the chest dont really drop something hyped up on drugs all that effectively, especially in FMJ form. Good ammo like 75gr TAP may give me more faith...as far a FMJ military ammo and war, Id take a .308. In civilian life too.

All m16 arguments go into the m1a vs ar-15 debate.

"5.56 is more controllable in full auto"

Yeah, cause we can all afford or legally buy class 3s.....

"it's not about caliber, itws about shot placement"
In that case, why not 10/22s? ....Oh, so caliber does matter? Taking back your original stateent?

"With 556 you can carry more ammo"

Well, if i drop things with a single shot instead of a 3 round burst, im using less. Dont need as much.

".308s are heavy."

Yep, an extra pound of rifle....big deal.

Christ you have no idea what you're talking about.

Reread what I posted. I didn't mention one word about full auto. I mention control and double tap. Do you know what double tap is? Two quick shot two pull of the trigger. You don't go burst or full auto as other people posted on this thread. The only time you do it is to maintain suppression.

See that video on that I posted. They didn't use full auto or burst they use semi-auto. It trigger manipulations. That's one of the things that they teach you in combat class, trigger manipulation and gun control.

What happen when a 22lr hit the heart. The same thing happen when a .50 caliber hit the heart. The same thing happen when a .30 caliber hit the heart. 30 seconds or less to live.

Do you actually think one shot of .30 caliber will drop a guy? Have you seen a person that got hit multiple times with 30mm cannon and still moving? 30mm is twice as big as a .50 cal and is consider heavy weapon.

Do you actually think that every shot you pull will hit the target just like in the movies? You're living in a fantasy world. That's not real combat. In Vietnam for every 100,000 round fired we got one kill. In the first Gulf War we cut that down to 10,000 rounds for every one kill. The 10,000 to 1 is the best in the world.

[k9870]

Im not basing that on only your post, ive seen this debate say....evryday on other forums. That said I dont think 308 is the best round, just better than 5.56mm. Id personally want a intermediate caliber but the 6.8 isn't really living up to the hype (the 77gr 5.56 military round delivers equal energy) and 6.5 grendel doesn't feed reliably. I dont like the Ar system. Some people are obsessed with them. Some people like AKs somehow. If 223 was so powerful there wouldnt be so many states banning the for use on deer.